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David
7th December 2008, 17:26
is it ok to put long pimples on both sides?

I want to use cloud and fog 3 on both sides and I'm unsure if its right.

I want to use it as a project bat - just to see what its like.

many thanks.

AndySmith
7th December 2008, 18:38
Pips on both sides? :redcard:

That's two sides too many. :rocker:

LOL.

David
7th December 2008, 18:49
not helpful.....lol

Belisar
7th December 2008, 19:05
You can use long pimps on both sides. Just need to make sure the rubbers themselves are legal and not one of those recently banned frictionles jobs.

I think Chris Bush used long pimps and short pimps on hisbatto great effect as a junior not so long ago.

Chico
8th December 2008, 10:13
As long as one side is Black and the other side is Red!

But I agree :redcard:

So_Devo
8th December 2008, 11:48
Legally - yes (if black and red).

But by having identical rubbers on both sides you lose a lot of the advantages of LPs - namely the variation between the spin on your returns.

Jase
8th December 2008, 12:42
watched Eckersley at the VETTS, plays feint long on backhand I think with a quick rubber on forehand, very effective. Not a big fan of his temperament though I must say!!!:redcard:

So_Devo
8th December 2008, 12:56
There's a student at my work (a university) who was ranked around 300 in the world in 2000 or so. He plays Tackifire and feint, and even given that he does not play much now it is still something special to watch. Actually, the opponents faces' are the thing to watch - no comprende! :covereyes:

When knocking up he doesn't play a single shot with the LPs - in fact no defensive shots either.

Belisar
8th December 2008, 20:18
When knocking up he doesn't play a single shot with the LPs

I am sorry to say that annoys me.

Got no problem with long pimps but if someone does not use them in the knock up then they are gaining a massive advantage.

If I play someone with pimps I try to hit to them early in the knock up and then ask if they are going to use them to knock up with. If they say no then I will not knock up with them at all. If I cannot get used to their bat then why should I let them get used to mine.

JKC
8th December 2008, 20:33
A knock up is for you to get used to the conditions and not for you to get used to the opponents bat. There is no rule which says you have to use both sides of the bat for knocking. It is something you will just have to get used to.
If someone does it to me, I always play the ball to the LP early in the 1st rally and try to make sure I win the point to show them that it hasn't bothered me at all.
Not sure how you stand under the rules if you refuse to have a knock though.

Annie
8th December 2008, 20:41
I'd have thought all's fair in love and war so to speak and the object of the game is to win within the rules? If a type of bat is allowed then it is ok to use during the game. Isn't that what the contest is about?

Belisar
8th December 2008, 21:01
A knock up is for you to get used to the conditions and not for you to get used to the opponents bat. There is no rule which says you have to use both sides of the bat for knocking.

I fully understand the rule - it is just a personal thing for me a bit of ettiquette like acknowledging a net or an edge.

I play in a team with a player who uses pimples and twiddles but he knocks up the same way he plays so he uses the pimps and he twiddles. To me that is the right thing to do.



Not sure how you stand under the rules if you refuse to have a knock though.

I am not an umpire (if anyone is I would be interested to know their thoughts). But so far I have not had anyone demand to knock up with me (although I have only ever met one player who did not use their pimps in the knock up). They can get used to the conditions by knocking up with a team mate and so can I. That way it is the same for both players.

You may have noticed ... I can be a bit wierd :p

Belisar
9th December 2008, 06:57
A quick add on for anyone who knows the rules.

Can you knock up with one bat and then use a different one for the match itself ?

David
10th December 2008, 07:39
tried pimples the other day and it was bl00dy awful - DONT DO IT......lol

AndySmith
10th December 2008, 07:53
Yay!

You're a good man David. :slider_hi5:
LOL.

David
10th December 2008, 08:02
hahha - cheers.

I have picked my new bat though, here it is:

blade: http://www.andro.de/en/hoelzer/super-core-cl-all+.php
forehand rubber: http://www.tabletennisdirect.com/products/info.aspx?range=Rubbers&subrange=Butterfly&product=bsriverl - 1.9mm
backhand: http://www.tabletennisdirect.com/products/info.aspx?range=Rubbers&subrange=Dr%20Neubauer&product=drnspecdef - 1.5mm

should be good.

David
10th December 2008, 08:09
20 cheaper at tees as well - perfect.

Ruudolph
11th December 2008, 00:34
tried pimples the other day and it was bl00dy awful - DONT DO IT......lol

I've played with long pips before. It's excellent if you know how to use it. I'm using half-long now and it's brilliant! I will be trying short-pips next. :dance3:

FantasyCheeseBasin
11th December 2008, 04:35
im using the new tacky fibre optic pimples,(78.99 per pimple) they give your opponent no chance of a return and send the ball back across at 7000mph and 580,000rps,i will be world champion in 2009.:laola:

Annie
11th December 2008, 07:05
im using the new tacky fibre optic pimples,(78.99 per pimple) they give your opponent no chance of a return and send the ball back across at 7000mph and 580,000rps,i will be world champion in 2009.:laola:

I started to read this and believed every word until I realised :redcard:

So_Devo
11th December 2008, 07:50
im using the new tacky fibre optic pimples,(78.99 per pimple) they give your opponent no chance of a return and send the ball back across at 7000mph and 580,000rps,i will be world champion in 2009.:laola:

But not in 2010 after the ITTF ban it !!!

David
11th December 2008, 08:04
just bought my new bat.......

1Tees Sport Blade Varnishing Service (http://www.teessport.com/table-tennis-blades-5/teessport-tennis-varnishing-service-3497.htm)13.00
2Butterfly Sriver L Rev Table Tennis Rubber (http://www.teessport.com/table-tennis-rubbers-6/butterfly-tennis-sriver-rubber-35.htm) (Colour: Black, Thickness: 1.9)117.01
3ButterflyTackiness Chop II Table Tennis Rubber (http://www.teessport.com/table-tennis-rubbers-6/butterfly-tennis-butterflytackiness-rubber-2438.htm) (Colour: Red, Thickness: 1.5)121.27
4Andro Blax All+ Table Tennis Blade (http://www.teessport.com/table-tennis-blades-5/andro-table-tennis-blax-1762.htm) (Handle Type: AN)123.82
5Tees Sport Bat Assembly Service (http://www.teessport.com/table-tennis-blades-5/teessport-tennis-assembly-service-3506.htm)11.30

very happy.

Ruudolph
11th December 2008, 12:10
im using the new tacky fibre optic pimples,(78.99 per pimple) they give your opponent no chance of a return and send the ball back across at 7000mph and 580,000rps,i will be world champion in 2009.:laola:

I prefer rubbers that can make the ball spin like 1000k rpm coupled with the speed of light. Give me that and I will rule the TT world! :slider_hi5::victory:

So_Devo
11th December 2008, 13:03
just bought my new bat.......

1Tees Sport Blade Varnishing Service (http://www.teessport.com/table-tennis-blades-5/teessport-tennis-varnishing-service-3497.htm)13.00
2Butterfly Sriver L Rev Table Tennis Rubber (http://www.teessport.com/table-tennis-rubbers-6/butterfly-tennis-sriver-rubber-35.htm) (Colour: Black, Thickness: 1.9)117.01
3ButterflyTackiness Chop II Table Tennis Rubber (http://www.teessport.com/table-tennis-rubbers-6/butterfly-tennis-butterflytackiness-rubber-2438.htm) (Colour: Red, Thickness: 1.5)121.27
4Andro Blax All+ Table Tennis Blade (http://www.teessport.com/table-tennis-blades-5/andro-table-tennis-blax-1762.htm) (Handle Type: AN)123.82
5Tees Sport Bat Assembly Service (http://www.teessport.com/table-tennis-blades-5/teessport-tennis-assembly-service-3506.htm)11.30

very happy.

Dare to be different - I would guess you'll end up with a black rubber on your f/h !!

Have you played with an AN handle before? - I couldn't get used to one.

Seems a very sensible choice of equipment speed and control wise

David
11th December 2008, 21:33
Dare to be different - I would guess you'll end up with a black rubber on your f/h !!

Have you played with an AN handle before? - I couldn't get used to one.

Seems a very sensible choice of equipment speed and control wise

yep - black on the forehand.

AN handle - my first one, the blade I've got at the moment (729) is about a wide as a pencil - so this should be wider I hope.

Equipment - went more for an allround set up than my current off set up. should be good.

just need to get more practise in now.....

thanks for your reply......:thumbsup:

Jase
11th December 2008, 23:11
yep - black on the forehand.

AN handle - my first one, the blade I've got at the moment (729) is about a wide as a pencil - so this should be wider I hope.

Equipment - went more for an allround set up than my current off set up. should be good.

just need to get more practise in now.....

thanks for your reply......:thumbsup:

Come and have a day out in Norwich mate for a knock, you would be more than welcome!!!:dance3:
I'm not suffolkist!!!!
:friends:

So_Devo
12th December 2008, 00:43
Come and have a day out in Norwich mate for a knock, you would be more than welcome!!!:dance3:
I'm not suffolkist!!!!
:friends:

Hey Jase, I may take you up on this! I have a friend to visit in Lowestoft.

FantasyCheeseBasin
12th December 2008, 03:11
:redcard:"anti pimple party",a vote for us is a vote for the long life of table tennis

choppy floaty pimply up down rubbish spin floppy chop float wobbley,hmmn why is that not a good viewable game

sorry guys but pimples and the ilk kill the game :redcard:

David
12th December 2008, 07:47
Come and have a day out in Norwich mate for a knock, you would be more than welcome!!!:dance3:
I'm not suffolkist!!!!
:friends:

spent more time living in norfolk than suffolk, so thats fine........:rocker:
many thanks for the offer - do you play in norwich?

Chopfloat
13th December 2008, 18:42
A quick add on for anyone who knows the rules.

Can you knock up with one bat and then use a different one for the match itself ?
Yes,as long as your opponent has the opportunity to inspect the racket that you intend to use.
Techically you can knock up with an illegal bat;then start with a legal one!!!:redcard::redcard:

Dave Robson
13th December 2008, 18:45
Im sure you tried that one Jimmy !

David
16th December 2008, 19:22
just bought my new bat.......

1Tees Sport Blade Varnishing Service (http://www.teessport.com/table-tennis-blades-5/teessport-tennis-varnishing-service-3497.htm)13.00
2Butterfly Sriver L Rev Table Tennis Rubber (http://www.teessport.com/table-tennis-rubbers-6/butterfly-tennis-sriver-rubber-35.htm) (Colour: Black, Thickness: 1.9)117.01
3ButterflyTackiness Chop II Table Tennis Rubber (http://www.teessport.com/table-tennis-rubbers-6/butterfly-tennis-butterflytackiness-rubber-2438.htm) (Colour: Red, Thickness: 1.5)121.27
4Andro Blax All+ Table Tennis Blade (http://www.teessport.com/table-tennis-blades-5/andro-table-tennis-blax-1762.htm) (Handle Type: AN)123.82
5Tees Sport Bat Assembly Service (http://www.teessport.com/table-tennis-blades-5/teessport-tennis-assembly-service-3506.htm)11.30

very happy.

this bat is bl**dy great - very nice and all I can say is I chose well....lol

Annie
16th December 2008, 19:32
this bat is bl**dy great - very nice and all I can say is I chose well....lol


Good feedback David. It's nice to hear when a combination works well. :happy:

David
16th December 2008, 22:36
Good feedback David. It's nice to hear when a combination works well. :happy:

thanks Annie, the problem is now - theres a chap with virtually the same equipment as me and he totally whopped me yesterday......:covereyes:

I still losing but by a lot less than before.......:happy:

-Kieron-
16th December 2008, 22:43
every tournament i've been to i've seen this boy and he got long pimples as his red one but i wouldn put them on both myself:redcard: but if you put them on 1:yellowcard:

Annie
16th December 2008, 22:45
thanks Annie, the problem is now - theres a chap with virtually the same equipment as me and he totally whopped me yesterday......:covereyes:

I still losing but by a lot less than before.......:happy:

Practise makes perfect David! :thumbsup:

Metalguru
27th December 2008, 21:31
Hi
Can anyone tell me if donic alligator is still on the banned hit list only i was told it had been taken off
If it is to be banned ca anyone tell me the best legal alternative.
Many thanks. Clive

SammyBoy
28th December 2008, 16:43
I will find out as i have the list

Sam

SammyBoy
28th December 2008, 16:50
ok there is the list up to 2008............ and alligator is on it ..... List is HERE (http://www.ittf.com/ittf_equipment/pdf/List28B.pdf)

Metalguru
3rd January 2009, 00:32
Thanks for that guess i'll have to look for something else

David
4th January 2009, 08:35
dr neubauer will have nothing left soon.......lol

TonyZeqiri
14th January 2009, 21:53
:redcard::redcard::redcard::redcard::redcard::redc ard::redcard::redcard::redcard::redcard::redcard:: redcard: pimples!!! lol

Annie
14th January 2009, 21:55
:coverlaugh: Another fan I see!

AndySmith
15th January 2009, 11:20
10 red cards! A new record!

Werewolf
18th January 2009, 09:38
Time for me to have a rant:taz:! Firstly I dont use pimples, however pimples do not ruin the game:redcard:. Pimples add to the fantastic variation within our sport, without them we would almost certainly have less defenders. They are not cheating and are very difficult to use. It doesnt surprise me that most of the posts on here moaning about pimples are by people going on about tuned rubbers and boosters and whatever advantage they can get from their rubberd. Why were long pimples needed in the first place, surely to counter act the benefit of the faster sponges. I personally love playing against pimples as it offers a different challange and makes you think! For those of you that say you cant play someone just because they have long pimples it is your fault not theirs learn to play them and maybe you will understand the game more. I read about kids being put off of the game because of pimples to me that is rubbish I would think they are being put off by older players telling them that long pimples ruin the game and are cheating etc., if noone did this surely they would just consider it part of the game and overcoming it part of the learning process. Whenn I see posts like Tony's saying it ruins the game, I am sure what he means is it makes it difficult for him to play the way he wants, I have never seen a game played by Matthew Syed using pimples that was ruined because of it, some of the best matches to watch are involving long pimples. If we want a pure game fine make everyone use the same rubber if not why should some players get an advantage from say excessive speed of rubber and others not get an advantage by using a rubber that counteracts it. Which rubber has ruined the game more? Which type of rubber is closer to what most people consider is the pure game with the hardbat.
So come on everyone stop whinging:redcard: about pimples and making excuses use your brains and overcome the challange.
:taz::rocker::tomato::resent: Ok RANT OVER.

Annie
18th January 2009, 10:02
Time for me to have a rant:taz:! Firstly I dont use pimples, however pimples do not ruin the game:redcard:. Pimples add to the fantastic variation within our sport, without them we would almost certainly have less defenders. They are not cheating and are very difficult to use. It doesnt surprise me that most of the posts on here moaning about pimples are by people going on about tuned rubbers and boosters and whatever advantage they can get from their rubberd. Why were long pimples needed in the first place, surely to counter act the benefit of the faster sponges. I personally love playing against pimples as it offers a different challange and makes you think! For those of you that say you cant play someone just because they have long pimples it is your fault not theirs learn to play them and maybe you will understand the game more. I read about kids being put off of the game because of pimples to me that is rubbish I would think they are being put off by older players telling them that long pimples ruin the game and are cheating etc., if noone did this surely they would just consider it part of the game and overcoming it part of the learning process. Whenn I see posts like Tony's saying it ruins the game, I am sure what he means is it makes it difficult for him to play the way he wants, I have never seen a game played by Matthew Syed using pimples that was ruined because of it, some of the best matches to watch are involving long pimples. If we want a pure game fine make everyone use the same rubber if not why should some players get an advantage from say excessive speed of rubber and others not get an advantage by using a rubber that counteracts it. Which rubber has ruined the game more? Which type of rubber is closer to what most people consider is the pure game with the hardbat.
So come on everyone stop whinging:redcard: about pimples and making excuses use your brains and overcome the challange.
:taz::rocker::tomato::resent: Ok RANT OVER.

Actually you make a lot of good points there Werewolf. And good for you for standing up! http://www.tabletennistalk.co.uk/forum/images/icons/clap.gif

Ruudolph
18th January 2009, 13:34
That's one hell of a great rant Werewolf! Quality! :thumbsup:

Be prepared for more moans (ah long pimples-frictionless-no skill-youth players put off-lost to rubbers not man-blah blah blah!) though!

AndySmith
18th January 2009, 14:37
I personally love playing against pimples as it offers a different challange and makes you think! For those of you that say you cant play someone just because they have long pimples it is your fault not theirs learn to play them and maybe you will understand the game more.

The idea that someone can put ANYTHING on a blade, no matter how mental, and then blame the rest of the world for not being up to the challenge is ludicrous. Will the manufacturers just keep making crazier equipment on this basis? Until the game becomes an unwatchable and unpredictable mess of wobbling balls and unreadable spin? Pips have been around for a long time, and people have always griped, but I've never thought of them as being "damaging" until the new breed of frictionless came along.

There has to be a line, beyond which the equipment is giving too much of an advantage to the player. You have to have limits to stop the equipment ruining the game, and I think frictionless pushes the boundaries too much.

Annie
18th January 2009, 14:41
*Waits patiently for Werewolf's response* :popcorn:

Belisar
18th January 2009, 14:48
There has to be a line, beyond which the equipment is giving too much of an advantage to the player. You have to have limits to stop the equipment ruining the game, and I think frictionless pushes the boundaries too much.

But frictionless are now banned.

How do you feel about the normal long pimps ?

I coach kids, they do not use pimps themselves and struggle against players who use them but I bought myself some and put them on an old blade and every now and then I use that bat as part of the training.

I have sympathy with Wolfy - bear in mind that the game has got faster and faster and the bigger ball was brought in to slow the rally's down. If there are to be boundaries where does speed feature ?

AndySmith
18th January 2009, 16:07
But frictionless are now banned.

How do you feel about the normal long pimps ?



Indifferent really. I can't see me using them myself, but I've never really struggled against them because they can be understood. I can play the loop one, push one, hit one game with no problems. The frictionless stuff brought a new level of randomness to the returns, which became so difficult to read that it bordered on unfair. And, as I've said before, we have lost a lot of junior enthusiasm this year thanks to a few players who have continued to use them

Although the ITTF have banned them, players in my league are still using them, so until the ban is adopted universally I want to whinge endlessly! :taz:


I coach kids, they do not use pimps themselves and struggle against players who use them but I bought myself some and put them on an old blade and every now and then I use that bat as part of the training.

They're lucky to have a coach prepared to do this. Nice one!


I have sympathy with Wolfy - bear in mind that the game has got faster and faster and the bigger ball was brought in to slow the rally's down. If there are to be boundaries where does speed feature ?

Really interesting point.

Well, perhaps a speed limit is the next thing to be considered? I personally welcomed the introduction of the glue/tuner/booster ban. Forget the health issue, it's again down to fairness. The ITTF approve a rubber, and then players can go away and use whatever chemical they want to radically change its behaviour? Why bother having ITTF approval at all if you're allowed to use tea tree oil/hand lotion/garlic mayo/one hour in the oven?

Once the playing field is "level" (as in, you buy legal equipment and then can't modify it), you can then avoid the "arms race" of players using whatever's lying around in the garage to boost. Lots of high-level players only used glue because everyone else around them started to, and they didn't want to give anything away.

Then, perhaps the next step is to have some kind of limit to how much pace the sponge will put on for you? So the ITTF could refuse to approve mega-power-spring-sponge stuff. If the slowing effect of the big ball has been overcome by the speed effect of the rubbers, maybe now is the right time to look at this. But the glue ban has probably slowed things down a tad - I'm told that the new generation of rubbers isn't quite up to the pace of the old glued-up stuff yet.

I have no problem with super-fast rubbers. I never glued up myself, but if my opponent has a fast rubber I feel that I'm more likely to overpower him anyway. And if he/she can control it and hit everything past me, then fair play - they've obviously trained to achieve that level of ability.

But a fast rubber is just that - fast. It's not fast in some circumstances, slow in others, spin sometimes, no spin, mid-air wobbling, skidding, popping. It's consistent and readable. And hence, fair in my opinion. If you choose to put fritionless on your blade, you're not trying to win points - you're trying to confuse your opponent into making mistakes. Isn't that a really negative approach?

Ruudolph
18th January 2009, 16:24
Although the ITTF have banned them, players in my league are still using them, so until the ban is adopted universally I want to whinge endlessly! :taz:

You should whinge to the people running your league. You can of course whinge on here but nobody here will get your league to ban the nasty and unfair frictionless stuff.

Dave Robson
18th January 2009, 16:26
Great post Andy and although im with werewolf on this in relation to use your brains and find a way around the wobbling and strange reaction sometimes pimples give, i think the frictionless needed to be banned because it in no way shape or form enhanced the sport and in fact made it sometimes horrible to watch as a spectator...... but banning ..... no i would leave pimples within the sport deffinitly as it is quite interesting to play against once you have the barrier out of your head that its simply spoiling the game.

AndySmith
18th January 2009, 16:29
You should whinge to the people running your league. You can of course whinge on here but nobody here will get your league to ban the nasty and unfair frictionless stuff.

I'll be on their backs at the next AGM! The forum is helping me to form my argument in advance. And it's nice to get it all off my chest!

Thanks to everyone who's put their opinions in so far. It's all useful stuff!

Dave Robson
18th January 2009, 16:30
Thats what the place is for discuss and debate ...... so do it :happy:

AndySmith
18th January 2009, 16:31
Great post Andy and although im with werewolf on this in relation to use your brains and find a way around the wobbling and strange reaction sometimes pimples give, i think the frictionless needed to be banned because it in no way shape or form enhanced the sport and in fact made it sometimes horrible to watch as a spectator...... but banning ..... no i would leave pimples within the sport deffinitly as it is quite interesting to play against once you have the barrier out of your head that its simply spoiling the game.

This is where my mind has settled now as well. I've been making great pains to draw attention to the difference in my opinion of LP and frictionless in this thread. And it's probably boring everyone now anyway!

Ruudolph
18th January 2009, 16:35
I'll be on their backs at the next AGM!

Yes Andy go get them to ban the frictionless stuff but leave the normal LP alone. Wish you all the best in your next AGM! :thumbsup:

Belisar
18th January 2009, 17:01
use tea tree oil/hand lotion/garlic mayo/one hour in the oven?


Blimey are we talking table tennis or Saturday Kitchen :thtease:

Hehe interesting stuff

Moggy
18th January 2009, 19:19
I coach kids, they do not use pimps themselves and struggle against players who use them but I bought myself some and put them on an old blade and every now and then I use that bat as part of the training.

Same here Belisar, and once shown what pimples are about, the juniors reckon that super spinny / tacky rubbers are worse to play against.
Introducing juniors to league play is more problematic when they play against reverse rubber (older) players who use heavy backspin and/or side spin.

Let's outlaw tacky rubbers :coverlaugh:

Belisar
18th January 2009, 21:52
the juniors reckon that super spinny / tacky rubbers are worse to play against.


My kids tend to hate dead rubbers with no spin or pace. The ball does not come through fast enough or with the spin they are used to. So they end up mis-timing the thing or mis-reading it.

I do wonder if we fail to teach kids to rally properly and work for the points more. Fast game, hit a winner within three shots is great until you meet someone who gives you no spin, no pace and just keeps the ball on the table - whole new topic I guess.

So_Devo
19th January 2009, 09:52
Introducing juniors to league play is more problematic when they play against reverse rubber (older) players who use heavy backspin and/or side spin.


Possibly straying off-topic, but this is surely down to the order in which juniors are coached - do we teach offense too quickly?

I've no coaching qualification but remember the 'order' I was taught in and as my daughter is starting to learn I'm sort of following the same order with her, i.e.

B/h push first
F/H push second
Basic f/h and b/h serves (at this point they can play a game)

B/h roll
f/h roll
b/h chop
f/h chop

moving on to drives and loops, advanced serves, blocks etc.

Now maybe that is old school, but that order of learning teaches to sustain a rally when necessary, building the foundations before the offensive game.

Chloe (my daughter) got a short session with the coach at an open session and he starts showing her a f/h topspin - IMO too early - do we miss some essential foundations with the juniors?

I played and beat a very good defender last week - top ten in our local league premier div averages - but had to revert to a lot of pushing and very selective choosing of which balls to attack. Without the foundation of the above it would have been a case of being pushed or chopped off or probably hitting unsuccessfully.

Belisar
19th January 2009, 10:59
I do think it is necessary to teach juniors to play consistently but I always teach forehand drive first. To me you still need to try to win the point and a push only teaches you how not to lose it easily.

I tend to find that when under pressure players (not just juniors) revert to what they know best and what they know best is the shot they learned first. The mental approach should be "can I loop or drive it...no.. then I have to push" rather than "I can't loop or drive it so I will push". The positive rather than the negative.

I am not against pushing or defending and do not necessarily regard it as a negative choice but I would rather a junior have good footwork and be able to hit 20 consecutive drives rather than rely on a push in the hope they get an easy ball.

I wonder what order everyone coaches the shots in.

f/h drive
b/h drive
b/h push
f/h loop
b/h loop

Serve gets mixed up in there somewhere and I do not teach a forehand push, if it is long to the forehand then loop it and if it is short flick, touch etc (but that gets a bit more advanced).

Assybish
22nd January 2009, 11:55
Much to the delight of everyone - my final comment on long pimples most especially the frictionless stuff.
I play in the same league as Andy plus another local league - both refuse to ban the ITTF non approved long pimples or other rubbers and both contain many players who serve illegally (oddly often the same people!).
I have decided that if they do not ban them next season I will stop playing league TT as I get no [pleasure from playing mindless crap against rubbish players who usually are in the top 25% league averages but who if given a short pimps or reverse rubbber would be slaughtered.
Example in point - last week played a team we beat 9-1 in first half of season. They shipped in 2 players from their top team to try to get revenge - they were both frictionless long pimps with tacky and thin sponge on other faces players who in their own knock-up moved around like crabs trying to only play of the tacky side to hide the pimps. Our #1 and myself had a chat and decidexd to use reserve bats we had to combat this. He played with anti-loop on 1 side and I used legal long pimps on 1 side.

We both won long and tedious push prod matches which would have bored any one watching. I had never used long pimps before - I fitted them becuase I had heard their top players were being drafted in.
Both games had the ball wobbling to a ridiculous extent and dropping stone dead with near vertical descent.:redcard:
The interesting fact is that the opponents couldn't play aginst random spin and wobble and really didn't like it and were not at all happy to lose! So if long pimps are so skillful and difficult to use how come we beat two players from a higher division who had used long pimps for several seasons?! I had previously lost to one of them because I am an attacking looper and cannot get my timing against random flighted balls with little back or top spin - if I revert to push then I lose control as I play max sponge both sides and frictionless when twiddled can lead to opponents hitting to high and long.

I don't use speed glue or tuned rubbers etc (all rubber tuners are banned under latest ITTF rules anyway only factory made so called speed glue effect sponges are allowed and they do nothing I can see that MK V alone can't do).

The skill required to use max thickness reverse rubbers is far higher than any other as they give least forgiveness and I proved to myself last week any one can use long pimps to reasonable effect - I even got a couple of shots to loop until the spin died just before bouncing and the ball didn't therefore kick.
As to any pimples providing variety and a chance for defenders - all I can say is the best defender I ever played with in the 70's had MK V both sides, chopped and floated the ball enormously and his games often went to expedite because the rallies lasted so long it was almost impossible to hit through him unless he made an error. To watch him play a good looper was a joy every shot by both players needed to be thought out and accurate. I usually won 1/3 even though we practised together every week - he topped the Buckinghamshire league for 3 seasons running.

Our youngest player stayed with his reverse rubbers as he had no other blades and he lost both matches. However we still won the match which we wouldn't if we had all stayed with our usual rubbers - OK claim we're not good enough if you like but how come we won using legal but weird effects rubbers with little previous experience against player from a division up with 60%plus averages this season??

Sorry I still feel long pimples add nothing to the game, short/medium pimples are for players who can't attack against good chop but are at least fair and consistent in their performance.
Tacky rubbers only help if the opponent can't generate spin as if the ball is returned with a lot of spin then tacky rubbers become difficult to control. Pure speed is not an advantage as it is difficult to control but at least it is relatively easy to return as it is consistent.

As Andy says though the main problem is leagues refusing to ban ITTF banned list rubbers.

Chico
22nd January 2009, 15:09
I put on my new tenergy 64 - 1.9mm last night,feels good with more control than 05 but could be just all in the mind.

Annie
22nd January 2009, 16:05
Much to the delight of everyone - my final comment on long pimples most especially the frictionless stuff.
I play in the same league as Andy plus another local league - both refuse to ban the ITTF non approved long pimples or other rubbers and both contain many players who serve illegally (oddly often the same people!).
I have decided that if they do not ban them next season I will stop playing league TT as I get no [pleasure from playing mindless crap against rubbish players who usually are in the top 25% league averages but who if given a short pimps or reverse rubbber would be slaughtered.
Example in point - last week played a team we beat 9-1 in first half of season. They shipped in 2 players from their top team to try to get revenge - they were both frictionless long pimps with tacky and thin sponge on other faces players who in their own knock-up moved around like crabs trying to only play of the tacky side to hide the pimps. Our #1 and myself had a chat and decidexd to use reserve bats we had to combat this. He played with anti-loop on 1 side and I used legal long pimps on 1 side.

We both won long and tedious push prod matches which would have bored any one watching. I had never used long pimps before - I fitted them becuase I had heard their top players were being drafted in.
Both games had the ball wobbling to a ridiculous extent and dropping stone dead with near vertical descent.:redcard:
The interesting fact is that the opponents couldn't play aginst random spin and wobble and really didn't like it and were not at all happy to lose! So if long pimps are so skillful and difficult to use how come we beat two players from a higher division who had used long pimps for several seasons?! I had previously lost to one of them because I am an attacking looper and cannot get my timing against random flighted balls with little back or top spin - if I revert to push then I lose control as I play max sponge both sides and frictionless when twiddled can lead to opponents hitting to high and long.

I don't use speed glue or tuned rubbers etc (all rubber tuners are banned under latest ITTF rules anyway only factory made so called speed glue effect sponges are allowed and they do nothing I can see that MK V alone can't do).

The skill required to use max thickness reverse rubbers is far higher than any other as they give least forgiveness and I proved to myself last week any one can use long pimps to reasonable effect - I even got a couple of shots to loop until the spin died just before bouncing and the ball didn't therefore kick.
As to any pimples providing variety and a chance for defenders - all I can say is the best defender I ever played with in the 70's had MK V both sides, chopped and floated the ball enormously and his games often went to expedite because the rallies lasted so long it was almost impossible to hit through him unless he made an error. To watch him play a good looper was a joy every shot by both players needed to be thought out and accurate. I usually won 1/3 even though we practised together every week - he topped the Buckinghamshire league for 3 seasons running.

Our youngest player stayed with his reverse rubbers as he had no other blades and he lost both matches. However we still won the match which we wouldn't if we had all stayed with our usual rubbers - OK claim we're not good enough if you like but how come we won using legal but weird effects rubbers with little previous experience against player from a division up with 60%plus averages this season??

Sorry I still feel long pimples add nothing to the game, short/medium pimples are for players who can't attack against good chop but are at least fair and consistent in their performance.
Tacky rubbers only help if the opponent can't generate spin as if the ball is returned with a lot of spin then tacky rubbers become difficult to control. Pure speed is not an advantage as it is difficult to control but at least it is relatively easy to return as it is consistent.

As Andy says though the main problem is leagues refusing to ban ITTF banned list rubbers.

:faint:

AndySmith
22nd January 2009, 16:17
There are some very strong opinions out there about pips. I can only hope that the local leagues get their act together before more players get so frustrated that they pack it in completely.

Mr Wilko
25th January 2009, 22:52
im using the new tacky fibre optic pimples,(78.99 per pimple) they give your opponent no chance of a return and send the ball back across at 7000mph and 580,000rps,i will be world champion in 2009.:laola:


well FCB looks like even these rubbers dont help ya!!!!! ha ha

try bowls eh!!!! :pinkhandbag:

Ian Mashford
28th January 2009, 14:54
If you are playing with long pimples on one side and smooth on the other the effect you get for the opponent is called "combination". The question being if you put long pimples on both sides your opponent will get no surprises. He will be playing against long pimples all the time and will soon adapt (this is the reason one side of the blade must be red and the other black so the opponent has a chance to decide for himself which is which).
I think you would be far better looking for a new smooth i.e. tacky or fast rubber whichever is your preference. Don't forget you need control and I myself would put pips on the backhand for chop, block and pushing, giving the disruptive effect and hopefully forcing your opponent to produce a high ball which you can put away with your smooth, fast forehand.
All the best in your search for excellence. Hope this has been some help.

Ian Mashford.
P.S. Don't forget you can also attack with cloud & fog 3 with long pips with devastating effect.:leb:

Mr Wilko
28th January 2009, 16:08
if you do use long pimples both sides i think you will be hated at first until people get used to your new style!!!!!:joker::joker::joker:

Mathias
31st January 2009, 19:02
tried pimples the other day and it was bl00dy awful - DONT DO IT......lol

You need a coach if you are using soft long pips. The chopping technique and footwork alone require careful training. If you are just starting go OX (no sponge) and use a low friction pip (Insider TTMaster is popular). You can use this for a blocking game and as a base to develop chopping and understand reverse spin.

Mathias
31st January 2009, 19:05
I prefer rubbers that can make the ball spin like 1000k rpm coupled with the speed of light. Give me that and I will rule the TT world! :slider_hi5::victory:
Well its Tenergy surely. The fibre optic pip is a joke - there is no such thing.

Mathias
31st January 2009, 19:13
Hi
Can anyone tell me if donic alligator is still on the banned hit list only i was told it had been taken off
If it is to be banned ca anyone tell me the best legal alternative.
Many thanks. Clive

Good question. Allegator is banned - I had Alligator soft and liked it... I actually speed glued mine and ... it worked (not recommended for soft pips).

Donic have no real frictionless alternative, so the rubber you are looking for is the TTMaster rubbers ... I'm not sure if this is a Tees Sport forum so I'll not mention where you can buy it. Anyway its either SwingBack or Insider for the blocking game - which is what I suspect you do.

Donic I think released Alligator Def (I forget) but that aint the same thing. They have also released some weird named soft pips (I suspect they are regular pips just an unusual name) - these are very different. I could go on and on but the thing to do is search out a pip specialist forum and ask there.

I'm not keen on this place as it is quite hostile to pips and you get enough of that in games. So after a few more posts I'll move on.

http://www.pipfacts.info/content/view/26/42/

Annie
31st January 2009, 19:16
I'm not keen on this place as it is quite hostile to pips and you get enough of that in games. So after a few more posts I'll move on.

http://www.pipfacts.info/content/view/26/42/

Easy to run and hide! Why not stick around and fight your Pim corner? That's if you truly believe in it? :resent:

Mathias
31st January 2009, 19:18
A quick add on for anyone who knows the rules.

Can you knock up with one bat and then use a different one for the match itself ?

This is off topic but no you cannot. It would be a dream for a pip player to switch bats particularly between games within a match.

Alot of pip players will not expose the pips in the warm up. It is a bone of contention with the opponent and I dunno but the rules do allow it. What the pip player is trying to stop is spin strokes with known spin being returned from the pips because it allows the opponent the ability to suss the amount of reversal the rubber delivers.

Mathias
31st January 2009, 19:24
I've played with long pips before. It's excellent if you know how to use it. I'm using half-long now and it's brilliant! I will be trying short-pips next. :dance3:

Half-long are a classic pip. They can give the reverse of a long pip and the punching power of a short pip. Diamant (its a typo) from Neubauer are supposed to be reasonable as well- much of the same I suspect a medium pip with added reverse spin.

Short pips - you'll need a much stiffer blade, but the Neubauer Pistol is something you might like,,, good reversal for a short pip, but it lacks the power. 802-40 is your traditional short pip, you can't get it in the UK though but its cheap.

Mathias
31st January 2009, 19:26
Yes,as long as your opponent has the opportunity to inspect the racket that you intend to use.
Techically you can knock up with an illegal bat;then start with a legal one!!!:redcard::redcard:

No because the knock up (warm up) is officially part of the match.

Mathias
31st January 2009, 19:29
ok there is the list up to 2008............ and alligator is on it ..... List is HERE (http://www.ittf.com/ittf_equipment/pdf/List28B.pdf)

No, that will be Alligator Def (I think) and its not the same rubber. Alligator is a frictionless pip.

Alligator can still be used in the ETTA this season because they provided a 1 year grace after the official ITTF ban. However end of this season its gone. Pity.

Mathias
31st January 2009, 19:31
dr neubauer will have nothing left soon.......lol

Well thats true ... but the latest anti-top is supposed to be ok given a stiff blade is used.

Mathias
31st January 2009, 19:33
Time for me to have a rant:taz:! Firstly I dont use pimples, however pimples do not ruin the game:redcard:. Pimples add to the ....
So come on everyone stop whinging:redcard: about pimples and making excuses use your brains and overcome the challange.
.

Agreed and its really why pip specialists don't hang out in general forums because this sort of flack goes on all the time. I can play two winged looping if I wanted but pips add much more interest.

Mathias
31st January 2009, 19:36
The idea that someone can put ANYTHING on a blade, no matter how mental, and then blame the rest of the world for not being up to the challenge is ludicrous. Will the manufacturers just keep making crazier equipment on this basis? Until the game becomes an unwatchable and unpredictable mess of wobbling balls and unreadable spin? Pips have been around for a long time, and people have always griped, but I've never thought of them as being "damaging" until the new breed of frictionless came along.

There has to be a line, beyond which the equipment is giving too much of an advantage to the player. You have to have limits to stop the equipment ruining the game, and I think frictionless pushes the boundaries too much.

Frictionless is banned in the ETTA at the end of this season. So this is out-dated. There are a few soft-pips with high friction but nothing like the power that frictionless had. The strength of frictionless was to drop-shot a loop just over the net carrying heaps of reverse spin.

Mathias
31st January 2009, 19:50
...

Sorry I still feel long pimples add nothing to the game, short/medium pimples are for players who can't attack against good chop but are at least fair and consistent in their performance.
Tacky rubbers only help if the opponent can't generate spin as if the ball is returned with a lot of spin then tacky rubbers become difficult to control. Pure speed is not an advantage as it is difficult to control but at least it is relatively easy to return as it is consistent.

As Andy says though the main problem is leagues refusing to ban ITTF banned list rubbers.

Again ETTA will enforce the ban the end of this year. You should be able to enforce the ban next season.

Congrats on your win!! Yeah these guys were frictionless who couldn't twiddle and expecting to play against inverted. You wouldn't get away with that against a better pip player because they would twiddle against your no-spin and loop straight in - and target your pips. If you can't handle pips well they'll keep that up all game long .. (nasty)..

Playing pips takes a lot of work. For those that twiddle you need to learn two strokes for every stroke and adjust for the throwing angle. For soft pip choppers the foot work alone is tough. Really it ain't easy and thats without the spin manip.

Mathias
31st January 2009, 19:56
Easy to run and hide! Why not stick around and fight your Pim corner? That's if you truly believe in it? :resent:

Really I've had enough of that on DTTW. It is true that once a pip player holds there ground - particularly if they get to mod - things calm down. Its not running and hiding its just getting fedup.

Anyway I've spent the last hour answering all the bits here so I think I've done my bit of fighting.

Anyway thanks Annie but I'm done now.

:star:.... As for the original question ...... :star:

Firstly Cloud and Fog III is an excellant pip!!! With 1mm sponge it is hard to control - but if you can control it superb. You can always remove the sponge if you want more control and more reverse spin.

However don't do double long pip. Some people with do short pip/ long pip but double long pip gives you no attacking options, particular C&FIII. The modern soft sponge inverted tensors (on the right blade - balsa really) are really great and give almost as much control as pips. I'd do that and learn to twiddle.

Good question - we've all though that and nice rubber.

Over and out... some stuff I did on frictionless a while back.

http://www.pipfacts.info/content/view/26/42/

Annie
31st January 2009, 20:03
Well sorry to see you go if that is the case. I've read through all this thread and it has mixed views. We are an open speaking Forum as I hope you can see.

Pimps or no pimps.................that is the question?

Mathias
31st January 2009, 20:47
Pimps... its funny. The UK always calls them pimps. Its just in the US (I'm not American BTW) pimp is something quite different...

I'm against pimps... but very pro pip :)

JKC
31st January 2009, 22:40
You should stick around Mathias at least on this one thread, I have been defending the pimple cause, but don't know how much longer I can hold out. There are just so many of them and I am completely surrounded.

Mathias
2nd February 2009, 14:23
Okay just this thread.

Mathias
2nd February 2009, 23:08
Well waiting....

Belisar
3rd February 2009, 00:59
Well waiting....

Nice to see you have come back, great to get some variety in the points of view.

My team (me, 1 defender, 1 feint long generally defensive but can flat hit well and roll with the pips) versus close rivals (an all rounder and two pips users but one is an out and out attacker on both wings with no twiddles).

When someone rolls or even loops with something like feint long what's the best counter ? Clearly block does not work so punch, counter hit hard or even loop ?

I ended up trying to punch through everything he looped witht he pips but with limited success. I prefer pips defenders to play against as the game ends up a bit one dimensional but this guy shows you can be be a genuine all rounder and that makes such a difference.

Mathias
3rd February 2009, 07:23
Simply counter loop.

Personally I think attacking with pips has strategically weaknesses, particularly something like Feint long. What I do is vary the topspin on the return from sink/ no-spin to topspin in the same way that a chopper varies the backspin. This is Carl Prean's old style.

The problem is if you are topspinning to an attacking pip player, their return is never as fast as yours (long pips not short pips). Worse the pip player can't generate much underspin if at all - with Feint Long (very grippy) I doubt they can generate sink. So basically if you counter loop their mild topspin your returns are faster and more dangerous. If they are moving the topspin around it shouldn't be too hard to read (unless you are Prean's standard).

The attacking pip style works for two reasons 1) because the opponent is not expecting it 2) they become hesitant. At this point sooner or later they get caught by the shifting spin.

Strategically long pip choppers work because the underspin holds down the attacking speed of the opponent. Anyway just my thoughts.

JKC
3rd February 2009, 07:23
I tend to loop or flick a pimple roll depending if it is long or short. It is hard though as you have to override everything your TT automatic pilot is telling you to do.

Mathias
3rd February 2009, 09:10
As I've said JKC knows exactly how to play a long pip player.

Basically long pip attacking works well against underspin but poorly against topspin.

If the pip player twiddles to inverted (backhand) however and you've given them slow topspin then the counter loop will tough. I'm assuming the pip player are using the pips on the backhand BTW.

Oh the final reason why long pip attacking works is because the opponent's reaction time is greatly reduced. If a chopper floats the return the attacker has loads of time to watch and react, if an attacking pip player switches to topspin the opponent has much less time to adapt.

Keep in mind however strategically a looper is at a strong advantage in the scenario you've described - its just if you don't exploit that then of course the pip player is at an advantage.

Assybish
3rd February 2009, 10:23
As I've said before table tennis is the only sport I know of and certainly the only mass participation sport where there is so much equipment variation. Several hundred blades and thousands of rubbers and sponges. It is a joke and I suggest only exists to keep the equipment manufacturers in business:coin:. There is no other ball sport where the equipment not only affects your play but also that of your opponent. There have been changes in all sports equipment in evolutionary terms but none other than TT allow such a massive range of equipment with such tremendous variation in properties. On the grounds of costs to participants alone it is a valid argument to limit the number and types of rubbers and blades as TT has become a very expensive sport in terms of equipment. Blades at 20-100, rubbers at 4-50. I know of players who have spent hundreds just trying out blade and rubber combos until they find out what they like. Is this encouraging to juniors or beginners of any age?
I personally would prefer there to be less than 10 rubbers and the rule that both sides are the same. This would then show the skill of the player not the properties of the equipment.
As for interesting tactical matches well the greatest matches in tennis of all time are McEnroe v Borg, Borg v Connors, Sampras v Agassi. Clashes of attack against defence speed and athleticism, tactics, volleying (pity we don't volley in TT that would stuff all pimples!) all done with the same equipment and the same properties forehand and backhand!!!!!!!:rocker:
As to our American friend - I know what pimps are in both languages and I think calling the pimpled rubbers "pimps" is quite appropriate.:redcard:
A comment above that someone can twiddle to counter a loop is interesting as I believe it is impossible to twiddle fast enough to change the receiving surface if a drive loop or kill loop is played unless you are several feet back from the table and this is unlikely at amateur level especially when playing with pimps this type of player rarely explores more than 3 feet back.

Mathias
3rd February 2009, 11:28
A comment above that someone can twiddle to counter a loop is interesting as I believe it is impossible to twiddle fast enough to change the receiving surface if a drive loop or kill loop is played


You've just not played against someone who can twiddle quickly. The other issue is the bread and butter is a sink ball - as well as a backhand to backhand stroke (attempting to) minimize the power of the reply. Basically in the same motion that you would use to perform a backhand stroke you can twiddle. Even if the guy steps around to forehand loop to the backhand you can twiddle as soon as you see them stepping around (anticipation in this case). Oh and you also keep varying the placement of the ball on the blade - which any shifts the return spin around. Its an attempt to create uncertainty in the opponent and they'll respond by slowing the speed of the reply.

Strategically however if the opponent is going to pound the pip player with strong loops (strong backhand, good reading of spin variation) their is no real defence because your caught close with heaps of sponge (low reversal) - so block is ineffective and you've not the distance to chop reply. Thats the big problem with this style of play and its why defending is stragically more sound.

Anyway twiddling: You need to watch Carl Prean in action to see how quickly a twiddle can be performed. This guy twiddle blocks against Waldner's forehand loop kills (yep he's that fast). Danny Semmiller isn't bad either. Anyone can twiddle quickly with enough practice, the hard bit is disguising topspin as sink - that is very hard indeed and again Prean does it superbly and that was his real master class .

As for the amount of equipment:
1. Yes the price is crazy I agree, but forums like this can help alot.
2. Diversity I think is a good thing.
3. The ITTF president agrees (point 2). He defened his recent ban in a pip forum claiming (but I disagree) all he is doing is trimming the edges to make the sport more accessible.
4. One group of players historically agreed with you and became 'hardbat'.

You can't regulate the blade wood easily because Euro-Asia don't have the same trees and its a global sport. I think an upper limit on the speed of a rubber should be introduced.

Mathias
3rd February 2009, 11:40
I know of players who have spent hundreds just trying out blade and rubber combos until they find out what they like. Is this encouraging to juniors or beginners of any age?


Gee those got off lightly keeping it within 3 digit spending! Sorry I'm a bit of an EJ - less so now.

Cost On the junior issue ask yourself why does this country charge so much for Chinese rubber and Chinese blades? If you just go Chinese and buy overseas tt is not that expensive. Chinese kit is high quality just badly marketed.

The mark up on Chinese equipment in the UK is ridiculous and the supply of Chinese blades very poor. If you buy Chinese overseas tt can be kept cheap. Ok I admit the ban on tuner makes Chinese rubber a bit inaccessible : JCK somehow manages it, although I doubt he'd disclose how! (Ok you can ban me now ;) )

Many players (like me) traditionally avoid BTY (oh no I'm really going to be banned now - its a Tees forum!) because its overpriced. Admittedly they've come up with some great innovation (Bryce and Tenergy) but all BTY is so crazily expensive for no real reason other than they're sponsorship and marketing take place on an industrial scale. TSP another Japanese company that is very high quality is not too pricy by comparison.

Finally buy in the UK - never ever pay list price. Strike a working relationship and fixed discount with a supplier. Finally, finally most clubs will have a discount rate with the major UK suppliers. Some discount is really big.

Mathias
3rd February 2009, 12:02
I think calling the pimpled rubbers "pimps" is quite appropriate.:redcard:


Oh my goodness! A wise man overlooks an insult (Proverbs).

I take it you've been turned over by pip players ;) . Pip cost: Again Chinese pips are really cheap and many are really good.

Jayteebee
3rd February 2009, 12:59
im using the new tacky fibre optic pimples,(78.99 per pimple) they give your opponent no chance of a return and send the ball back across at 7000mph and 580,000rps,i will be world champion in 2009

Very, Very, Funny I thought!:happy:

Mathias
3rd February 2009, 12:59
As for interesting tactical matches well the greatest matches in tennis of all time are McEnroe v Borg, Borg v Connors, Sampras v Agassi. Clashes of attack against defence speed and athleticism, tactics, volleying (pity we don't volley in TT that would stuff all pimples!) all done with the same equipment and the same properties forehand and backhand!!!!!!!:rocker:


Something is not right here. The greatest matches of all time are Jan Ove Waldner's. Boll isn't bad beating Wang Liqin and Ma Lin is pretty tremendous, whilst watching Joo Se Hyak and Weixing Chen is a treat.

You need to understand the history of tt and Waldner's place within it to understand what he achieved: he changed the national policies of China. Just watching the highlights of Waldner alone is enough and there isn't a comparable tennis player - perhaps Borg but I dunno really. Waldner played strokes that just weren't strokes and won outright points with them - innovation of a true genius. The greatest innovator the game has ever seen. In football terms Waldner is the equivalent of Pele or George Best.

Check me out do a Utube of Waldner and watch him.

JKC
3rd February 2009, 13:18
The mark up on Chinese equipment in the UK is ridiculous and the supply of Chinese blades very poor. If you buy Chinese overseas tt can be kept cheap. Ok I admit the ban on tuner makes Chinese rubber a bit inaccessible : JCK somehow manages it, although I doubt he'd disclose how! (Ok you can ban me now ;) )

Many people try Chinese rubbers once and decide they are too slow. They take a while to break in. Some of the tackiness has to be lost and the sponge and topsheet soften with a few hits giving more speed. The most important thing though in extracting any sort of performance from Chinese rubbers is a change in the way you hit the ball. Maximum speed is achieved when you hit the ball with a very closed bat due to the large throw angle of the rubber (it also gives lots of spin). Players who are looking for a cheap alternative to a current rubber who want to play in the same way driving with the same open bats are likely to be disappointed.

My current technique for breaking in these rubbers is to stick them on an old bat for a couple of weeks and use them for hitting with Fred before transfering them to my proper bat.

AndySmith
3rd February 2009, 14:00
I think an upper limit on the speed of a rubber should be introduced.

I agree with you on this one. To be honest, I think that there should be limits on speed AND friction. I know this would stifle innovation somewhat, but it would guarantee a level playing field, and probably bring down prices in the long run. The equipment arms race seems never-ending. Probably never happen, and I'm sure noone will agree with me, but I'd even adopt a "standard" rubber.

If the 40mm ball was introduced to slow the game down for the sake of TV coverage, why do the ITTF allow massively fast rubbers to be developed? Surely that's defeating the objective of the bigger ball?

Mathias
3rd February 2009, 15:02
If the 40mm ball was introduced to slow the game down for the sake of TV coverage, why do the ITTF allow massively fast rubbers to be developed? Surely that's defeating the objective of the bigger ball?

A very good point and questions the whole non-VOC tuner ban - which...



My current technique for breaking in these rubbers is to stick them on an old bat for a couple of weeks and use them for hitting with Fred before transfering them to my proper bat.

I'm sure that JKC doesn't like (tuners are a good way to break in Chinese rubber).

JKC
3rd February 2009, 15:16
I tried some EEII on some new Transcend SP about 18 months ago and although the whole thing stretched about 1cm, flat speed was as bad as ever and there was little gain in spin. I did have more success with the Tibhar stuff, but it had to be stretched so much to speed it up that the structure of the rubber seemed to be damaged and I found that pimples cracked and then broke easily behind the topsheet when hitting big spinny loops. You could smell it mile off too.

The only successful way to bypass the breaking in process for Chinese rubbers is to speed glue them heavily when you first get them. Say 4 good layers two days in a row rolling them on give them a good stretch. The rubbers could then be removed and the glue layer could then be thick enough to peel off without much trouble. A bit of an airing for a day or 2 and then attach the rubbers again with some legal stuff. It would of course be cheating, and no one has any speed glue left any more, or do they?

Assybish
3rd February 2009, 17:58
Matthias
my comments about speed of twidling were about "NORMAL" PLAYERS not world top 10.
I play with a good penhold twiddler but if I hit close to the table drive loops he can't twiddle in time but can for "slow" loops.
I agree Waldener was/is a great player but that wasn't my point my point was that in tennis where equipment is virtually identical and forehand and backhand is identical the variety of play is still there and the best matches are between different styles and different mentalities not differing equipment.
I have lost too many matches to long pimps especially frictionless where the opponent is useless and would struggle to get a point if they played reverse or short pimps. As I've said before I do not enjoy playing against random shots created by equipment and as I play for enjoyment I intend to give up at the end of this season. I don't mind losing -As I have just returned this season after a 27 year lay off- I fully expected to get hit off the table by 16 year old loopers as I used to be -but no I only lose heavily to anti-spin, frictionless and long pimps. I haven't lost to any juniors yet despite being 54 and having angina and being an attacking and counter attacking hitter! I dont mind losing to good defenders using reverse rubber either and I have lost several times to them.:bag:

Mathias
3rd February 2009, 18:21
Matthias
my comments about speed of twidling were about "NORMAL" PLAYERS not world top 10.
I play with a good penhold twiddler but if I hit close to the table drive loops he can't twiddle in time but can for "slow" loops.


There is a slight problem here Assybish.

It is actually very good if a pen-hold player can twiddle at all. If they can twiddle against ANY incoming stroke he must be very good, or at least very good indeed at twiddling.

I'm talking shake-hand twiddle and you (I) can do that very quickly. I wrote a 2500 word article on the mechanics of it here:

http://forum.oneofakindtrading.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=1504

I don't normally cross reference another forum but basically just to clear up that shakehand twiddling ain't as hard as you think. However, again it is very hard to twiddle penhold. I intend to get this up on the www.pipfacts.info (http://www.pip-facts.info) website at some point, although the article is over 1 year old so I need to get round to hosting it. Could be the longest web description (in English) of twiddling around.

You just need to learn reverse spin and no-spin against the guys your struggling against. Get you penhold partner to go RPB with long pips on the other side - actually they probably short pips on the reverse side(?) otherwise it wouldn't be worth twiddling.

Mathias
3rd February 2009, 18:38
Matthias
..... having angina and being an attacking and counter attacking hitter! I dont ..

Very sorry to hear about this indeed... it is good that you are playing under the circumstances then.

Mathias
3rd February 2009, 19:13
im using the new tacky fibre optic pimples,(78.99 per pimple) they give your opponent no chance of a return and send the ball back across at 7000mph and 580,000rps,i will be world champion in 2009.:laola:

At a guess thats Mk9 - the return is faster than the speed of sound 9 times over. Would make Wang Liqin's giant forehand look very tame indeed.

It would sure make alot more noise than the speed glue 'click' thats for sure.

Would a tt ball survive mk9? Might just burn up.


i will be world champion in 2009.

Or you might be wanted by the US military for the possession of a non-authorized lethal weapon.

Assybish
4th February 2009, 10:41
A HEADS UP TO EVERY ONE CONCERNED ABOUT TT RULES AND ILLEGAL RUBBERS IN THE UK Last night I played against a coach who uses Illegal Hallmark frictionless long pimps. He is the guy responsible for turning many older players in the Potteries league into illegal long pimps users. Andy will know who it is I'm sure. After the match I said that his rubbers will become illegal after July this year - he replied no they won't because the ETTA is not banning any rubbers and they have no constitution or procedures that will enable them to ban rubbers. Therefore the Potteries and Leek leagues will not ban the ITTF banned rubbers. I am only a TT player not admin etc so will any one on this forum who is please contact ETTA and get definitive clarification of whether ETTA intend to uphold the ITTF ban and whether local leagues must foll0ow suit or become outside the ETTA as have the Birmingham, league where they decided to keep 21 up? Please post here as I will not play if the ETTA refuses to follow the world governing body. TT is in a mess if what this "coach" who is also admin sec for 2 clubs is true! Andy - help please?!

Mathias
4th February 2009, 10:58
No he's wrong. I spoke with the current president several years ago and he hinted at the grace period then, but in no way suggested that the ETTA will ignore the ITTF ban.

However if your league will not accept ETTA rulings then that would be a problem. I would simply write to the league secretary explaining the situation and see what they say. If the response is not what you want I would forward it to the ETTA and then take their response back to your league.

There you go...
English Table Tennis Association Ltd.
Queensbury House (3rd Floor)
Havelock Road
Hastings
East Sussex
TN34 1HF

Tel: 01424 722525
Fax: 01424 422103

Email: admin@etta.co.uk (admin@etta.co.uk)

If your league is ETTA affiliated then it should adopt the ruling, but you will need to ensure that they do as it sounds like they will try and ignore it.

There are players how still ignore the 2-colour ruling (enforced in the '80s) so you need to kick up a fuss. You could be in for a fight however if your coach is influential in the league but the 'law' is on your side. These rubbers will not be allowed at ETTA tornaments and that is the way I would play it.

If you didn't get the ban enforced you could refuse to play frictionless players - you will lose by default but you could then appeal on the basis the rubber was illegal. If enough players in your league did the same the league would be forced to act. By the sound of it you'd probably be happy to do that. You need to make sure however they have not switched to the currently legal but less powerful 'frictionless' rubbers.

AndySmith
4th February 2009, 11:01
TT is in a mess if what this "coach" who is also admin sec for 2 clubs is true! Andy - help please?!

Nightmare!

If a rule change can't be passed down from the ITTF to the ETTA then something is seriously broken. Could be that Mr Coach is suffering from a bout of wishful thinking?

Still, I'll do some research and see what comes up. I'm guessing that this will crop up at the next AGM and we'll finally see what the league want to do about it.

Mathias
4th February 2009, 11:22
Nightmare!

If a rule change can't be passed down from the ITTF to the ETTA then something is seriously broken. Could be that Mr Coach is suffering from a bout of wishful thinking?


Yes that is the case. ETTA have adopted it. Your league however doesn't need to adopt a ETTA ruling if chooses to do so.

I can see what has happened here. You've got a key guy who has taught a load of others how to play frictionless. Be warned these players will in the end discover the TTMaster products - oh and watch out for Palio rubbers. One of the Palio rubbers is very frictionless but I don't think it is approved by the ITTF, the other one and they have very similar names is legal. Se7en have also brought out something similar to TTMaster.

To be honest providing no one is playing Super Block or Original I'm not that bothered. SB or Or. are powerful rubbers if played properly. Apart from that they are predictable if the guy can't twiddle.

The forum you appeared on, take it to the long pip section - they will know exactly what the score is as there are some advanced blockers that play English league there.

AndySmith
4th February 2009, 11:52
I've just sent an email to the ETTA via their website asking for clarification. I'll post any response I receive!

Mathias - I quite like the "go on strike" approach! Very topical. :coin:

Belisar
4th February 2009, 13:10
More confusion I suspect.

I got this around July time it is a comment from a senior ETTA official. I was concerned as my local league's AGM was held before the ETTA one and we were not sure whether we should be automatically following the ITTF rule (immediate ban) or the preferred ETTA Chairman's rule (1 years grace).



The ETTA Approved Laws of Table Tennis for Local Leagues does not include any mention of the ITTF Approved list so any League can decide not to use this approved list of rubbers and other regulations in theory for as long as they like.



It suggests that different leagues can adopt different rules on this important matter. I look forward to seeing what Andy gets back. For the record, if this comment remains true and accurate (and it may not be) I think it is daft that there is no strict ETTA rule that has to be adopted.

Enforcement at local league level is, of course, a whole different thing.

Mathias
4th February 2009, 13:43
It is surprising ... but the local league will often make a policy decision on whether they are going to abide by ETTA regulations as part of its 'constitution'. However, frictionless will be out of the ETTA tournaments I'm sure about that.

Personally I'm not too fussed because I understand how to play against frictionless - except if they 'drop shot' well - and I use pips too which helps: you invert the spin to the frictionless and use pips to perform the same stroke but now the pips will reverse the spin off frictionless rubber. E.g. loop inverted, loop with pips.

Ok you guys I've think you've got this thread all in order so I can disappear now.

Just a few things:
* I see the point that frictionless is hated because of the advantage it gives at low levels, particularly against juniors. Although I've heard all arguments before I'd never really appreciated that until I'd done this forum. Some of the feeling here was genuine and valid.
* I like frictionless because I used it to understand reverse spin.
* I think its a shame this option is not really available now.
* Many pip players see their inverted as just as much a weapon of spin manipulation as their pips. Thus thin sponge or particularly (modern) very soft sponged mechanical spin inverted, which is what I use, is used to play a spin stroke against the incoming spin, like pips.

In summary For the remaining legal pips.
You don't need a power game to win a point in tt and just 'cause some players specialize around this doesn't mean they're any less of a player. We've dedicated alot of time, effort and thinking for the sport so we should have some respect (even if we win).

Cheers,

Mathias

AndySmith
4th February 2009, 14:10
That's a bootiful wrap-up from Mathias there.

I'll post any response I get from the ETTA! :rulebook:

AndySmith
4th February 2009, 15:37
Well, here is my email to Alex Murdoch at the ETTA:

------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mr Murdoch,

Many apologies for this email. I have searched and searched the ETTA
website to obtain some clarity on this matter, and I can't find a
definitive answer! I'm sure you're sick of people asking this by now.

As you are of course aware, several products have been removed from
the ITTF approved racket coverings list. Specifically, frictionless
long pips.

Have the ETTA adopted this regulation for their events? Is there any
direction provided to ETTA affiliated local leagues regarding the use
of equipment removed from the approved list? And finally, if a local
league decides to allow the use of "banned" equipment, will this
endanger their affiliation, in the same manner that ignoring the 40mm
ball or 11-up rulings did?

I wish to obtain a definitive answer to these questions to avoid any
confusion at the next AGM of my local league.

Many thanks for any direction you can give!

Kind regards,

Andrew Smith.

------------------------------------------------------------------

AndySmith
4th February 2009, 15:38
And here is the response:

------------------------------------------------------------------

Andrew,

Thanks for your email and questions.

The ETTA apply the ITTF Regulations on authorised Racket coverings for all
the events they organise including County, British League, GP etc but not
the Local Leagues who must conform to the ETTA Laws of Table Tennis.
The debate about the Leagues being able to decide about any ITTF regulations
such as Rackets, Time Outs, Changing Bats etc is continuing and will require
approval at an ETTA AGM for this to happen.

I am personally, and have been trying for some time, believe that the Local
Leagues should be allowed to decide on, in particular, two areas the racket
coverings and people changing bats during a match even though it is not
broken, which in my view the League should be allowed to decide.

Have asked the rules committee to look at this and another way forward is
for a League to suggest a rule change at the AGM.

I do not want to ban Leagues because of this matter or the ETTA being a
Police Force to check it out.

Just consider we need to get in place a directive on this matter before next
season.

Hope this is ok you can ring me on xxxxxxxxxxx if you have any questions.

Regards

Alex

------------------------------------------------------------------

AndySmith
4th February 2009, 15:46
So, and I'm interpreting the response somewhat here, it appears that the ETTA apply ITTF regs to their own events, but don't automatically incorporate ITTF regs into their own regs.

The local leagues are ETTA-affiliated, and so use ETTA rules. Therefore, if a rule exists at ITTF level, and isn't rolled into the ETTA rulebook, then the leagues appear to be able to apply their own judgement in adopting it.

As it stands, I don't think the ETTA have got a rule that enforces the ITTF approved racket covering list (hope I'm wrong, obviously), so..........Mr Coach seems to be in the right at this stage.

However, there was a touch of "we're looking into it" in the response, so perhaps this will change. I'm interested in the fact that this results in a different type of game at local league level and everything from county up. I'd rather have one set of universal rules myself to avoid inconsistancy and chaos, but I'm sure some love the variety and spice of life!

Well done for Alex for responding so quickly - I didn't expect that. Top marks.

MK Chris
4th February 2009, 15:53
He's a very nice bloke actually, I'd have expected a quick response.

Belisar
4th February 2009, 16:00
Alex is a decent bloke and I have always found him helpful.

Don't like his thoughts on the rules though. I want clear rules for competitions not two local leagues adopting two different rules over important issues such as rubber. I did agree with his one years grace thoughts but the ETTA itself did not at the AGM.

11 up was not an option (other than to dis-affiliate). Why should racket coverings be any different ?

AndySmith
4th February 2009, 16:35
I should add - when I said I didn't expect him to get back to me so quickly, I didn't mean that I'd heard something bad about him. I just assumed he'd be too important and busy to deal with my random twitterings! It was a nice surprise. :trumpet:

The actual response was interesting though, wasn't it? Thinking about the comparison with the 11-up rule (comply or you're out!), I wonder if the pressure being applied from the ITTF down isn't the same these days. I would imagine that the ITTF put huge weight behind the 40mm ball and 11-up rule changes, forcing the ETTA to formally adopt, which in turn cascades down to the local leagues. Perhaps the same emphasis isn't being applied in this case?

I read the Adham thread over at the OOAKT forum, and he seemed in favour of local leagues doing whatever they want. Here's a quote:



I used to play in a TT League in Montreal and we did not follow ITTF rules. We played with any equipment we wanted and we had our own house rules. What is wrong with that. I played soccer at school and we never followed the off-side rule. But we had a lot of fun. What I fail to understand over and over again, is that clubs, leagues, and small groups at the lower levels cannot use whatever they want. Why not? Each group should set its own rules as it pleases the majority of the group just like the ITTF sets its rules for the ITTF events.

Assybish
4th February 2009, 16:58
Quite agree with Belisar - TT is a complete mess and no other racket sport, sailing, archery, rowing has such a pathetic miss match hotch potch of the shambolic vestiges of shamateurism - I totally despair and will not be playing Potteries or Leek leagues again. Thanks Andy for your efforts and speed of action - most impressive. For the record and to show how pathetic the situation is When I played this guy a week ago I lost 3,5,6 playing my normal rubbers. Last night for a laugh and to prove a point I put cloud and fog 2 mm sponge (allegedly very hard to control!) on the backhand and twiddled a bit too ( never done it before - seems like cheating to me ) I have only ever played with long pips once before and no practise. I lost again but this time two games went to deuce and I kept laughing because he didn't handle the rally when I played solely pimps and hit the ball long and high giving many free points and when I twiddled set the ball up for a 3 ball kill!. Cloud and fog does not produce wobble - all it did was mean I could push and chop with little fear of the ball going off the end or into the net. After he said he thought cloud and fog was no good as he had tried it and it didn't do anything unusual like his Hallmark frictionless. I rest my case this is the second time in a fortnight I have played long pimps against a long pimps frictionless player - won one and nearly won the other . I've played this rubber twice - these guys for many years. SO COME ON FUNNY RUBBER PLAYERS TELL ME WHERE THE SKILL IS I refuse to adopt long pimps myself because the game becomes so boring and I play for fun and like to win but it's not the main motivation. Another match was against a good young reverse rubber player - great rallies lots of hitting and counter hitting no 3 ball kills because the serve returns and counter hitting kept the rallies going. I also played some loop defence and chop defence when hit back off the table - I prefer mid distance hitting and counter hitting but hey variety and necessity- mother of invention and all that. I lost - just- but bloody enjoyed it and went home happy Anyone fancy starting a league in the West midlands only open to reverse and short pimps players? Heavy chop defenders and loopers most welcome!

Belisar
4th February 2009, 17:27
I
I read the Adham thread over at the OOAKT forum:

I can understand what the guy/girl s referring to.

I loved playing football in the park when I was a kid, "goalie when needed" etc worked for us and we had fun. I am not aware of any pub, Sunday or schools league that does not try to use the offside rule.

When you start making up your own rules where does it start and end ? "Hey let's allow volley's" or "you can only play with a bat in one hand and a pint in the other". You have to have structure or else it all gets a bit daft.

Saw a schools event recently where they played for 3 minutes not up to 11. Apparently there were three reasons. One it meant they could comply with English Schools rules of a 4-a side event. Two it meant they could finish at a pretty precise time and three it meant there should be no complete hammerings.

Oddly I saw a lot of 22-2 scores so the latter did not work. The three minute rule also messed the players up because once you won the first couple of points you stopped taking chances and just got the ball on the table. You took you time between points and relied on the other player getting frustrated and ever more conscious of the time so they rushed and made more mistakes.

It did not work as an event and was no help to players in terms of development. I take my hat off to the people who organised it and ran it, too few willing to do that and you take it for what it was - it was not espcially good for the kids in my opinion.

No point in an association if we are left to make our own rules up as we go along.

AndySmith
4th February 2009, 17:41
Seems like a strange position for the president of the ITTF to take. I mean, the ITTF should be in a position to modify the rules of the game to improve participation at the lower levels. But if any rule change they make is optional, then over time you'll have countless variations of the sport at all levels, and no opportunity to influence anything. The ITTF becomes a body to solely officiate it's own events, severely limiting the point of its own existance.

Belisar, in the example you gave I can see the point of a casual event taking place and an idea being tried out for practical reasons (finishing on time), even though it didn't really work out. I can't see the ITTF sending in the rule police and smashing up the tables in a prohibition-style takedown. But if the local leagues are the natural progression for juniors to reach county level, and then progress beyond, then they have to be held to account by someone, and guided by a relatively firm hand. The alternative is just...chaos, surely?


I totally despair and will not be playing Potteries or Leek leagues again.

Don't give up yet Assybish! The league may yet vote to adopt the regulation on its own merits anyway (and monkeys might fly out of my backside). Or the ETTA's position may firm up before the start of next season (that would be SUPER helpful).

Local leagues can't afford to be losing players. Maybe your club could sub someone else in so you can avoid the known frictionless players? I understand you shouldn't have to do that, but at least it keeps you playing?

Belisar
4th February 2009, 17:54
Don't give up yet Assybish! The league may yet vote to adopt the regulation

Not sure how your local league works Abbyish but if it is like the ones I know then you can write to the league and propose a rule change yourself.

Find a like minded individual to second your proposal and simply ask for a rule to be introduced that means the league will be run in compliance with ITTF regulations in terms of equipment, that would include speed glue as well as racket coverings.

There is likely to be a date by which the letter has to be received and then it will get discussed and put forward at the AGM (and voted on).

May or may not get passed but surely it is worth a letter.

Chopfloat
4th February 2009, 17:59
Yes Assybish,must agree with Andy,don't quit because of what someone else does.
After such a long lay-off,I suppose the changes can be difficult to crack.
We(the people who have played through all the changes)don't always see how the new rules and especially the different rubber ,can be so frustrating for either newcomers or returnees.
All that I would say is think of the reasons that you love the game for and if they outweigh the negatives then keep playing and stick the proverbial two at those who aren't really worth everything but contempt!!:boxing::boxing:

RMaxwellUSN
26th February 2009, 11:03
I think a lot of people forget that Inverts are the Johnny-come-lately of the TT world. Long pips are much closer to traditional table tennis. The majority of people who complain about Long pimples lack the necessary understanding of them. As for juniors getting messed about by them, its good because it teaches them something about the game other then serve/recieve, push, lift, loop/hit......ad nausium, that TT has become since the introduction of the 40mm ball. I'll take the speed glue/Frictionless bans in a heatbeat, because it takes some technology out on both the attacking and defending sides. I know there is long pips attacking styles and inverted defensive stlyes, but I'm talking about the main trunk of players using pimples. If you want to give pimples players grey hair, use other pimples on them!

NativeNewYorker
26th February 2009, 12:23
I think a lot of people forget that Inverts are the Johnny-come-lately of the TT world. Long pips are much closer to traditional table tennis. The majority of people who complain about Long pimples lack the necessary understanding of them. As for juniors getting messed about by them, its good because it teaches them something about the game other then serve/recieve, push, lift, loop/hit......ad nausium, that TT has become since the introduction of the 40mm ball. I'll take the speed glue/Frictionless bans in a heatbeat, because it takes some technology out on both the attacking and defending sides. I know there is long pips attacking styles and inverted defensive stlyes, but I'm talking about the main trunk of players using pimples. If you want to give pimples players grey hair, use other pimples on them!

Good post and in some respect i agree "johnny come lately" why dont you play fast type of characters are not using their brains to overcome what is usually a very straight forward process of finding a weakness. The weakness being the area of the pimples generally speaking that is !

Jase
26th February 2009, 13:01
Robert, as you will see if you read all the posts(give yourself a few days!!!) it is really the frictionless rubbish people have a problem with.
I am afraid the facts are that at a local level the vast majority of players that revert to frictionless are just spoilers, it teaches youngsters nothing imo.
Playing against a quality player using long pips, now that is a totally different debate and imo really adds to the sport.:fcb:

So_Devo
26th February 2009, 13:49
I think a lot of people forget that Inverts are the Johnny-come-lately of the TT world. Long pips are much closer to traditional table tennis.

Not sure I'd agree with that. Sure, inverted rubbers have only been with us since the 1950's but LPs are a lot more recent than that - and no pre-1950 bat was capable of spin-reversal, was it?

Crispione
26th February 2009, 13:52
The big drawback with LP's is that (unless you are very talented like Syed or Hilton) you can't play a positive shot and have to rely on the opponent misreading your passive return. When you get to a reasonable standard the chances of that happening get less & less and they become a handicap.

It's a generalisation, but most players use LP's to try & hide a weakness.

This should give every opposing player extra confidence. I always assume that someone using LP's has a big weakness on that wing & am happy to exploit it and just refuse to let them get the "normal" rubber into play - that way there is very little variation if you keep playing the same shot(s) to the LP's!

Just remember, it is IMPOSSIBLE for someone with LP's to beat you as they can't win a point, but it is possible for YOU to beat yourself! Just don't be afraid of them, they are easy & it's all in your own head!

I LOVE playing LP's as they are so easy to play against. Just to emphasise that point, I have regularly beaten Herbert Neubauer & the last time he didn't get more than 5 points in any game. As far as I'm concerned any further restriction of LP's will be a disaster as people will stop using them!!!!

ChrisR
26th February 2009, 15:29
Its just not Cricket putting pimples on both sides.
LOL
:redcard:

Chopfloat
26th February 2009, 16:25
My-o-my Chris,just jump straight in there like the proverbial cat and scatter those pigeons,LP'ed players beware,the chrisp-i-one has spoken!!!
Chris,your game is well suited to play against any defender,not just long pimpled players.Any flat-hitter will cause a defender problems as there is very little spin for them to dig into.

But for the majority of anti-pimple posters this is not the case.They need to work hard at combatting the LP's and may I say encouragement.

I take umbrage with your point:-That it's impossible for a long pimpled player to win a rally.:redcard::redcard:

Hope to see you back on the circuit soon and hitting those flat forehands again:joker::joker:

Crispione
26th February 2009, 18:22
No point in sitting on the fence, Jim - you just get splinters!

The point I was trying to make was that to have LP's on both sides makes it even easier for an opponent not more difficult.

Sorry, to cause you umbrage, but stand by the statement - opinions is what sport is about. :happy:

Once you understand what is happening (going to happen!) against LP's they lose their efectiveness, and then it is difficult for them to play a positive shot to win a point.

I certainly know that you were much easier to play when you had LP's. The last time we played up at Sunderland you were using reversed on both sides and were much more difficult to play.:friends:

AndySmith
26th February 2009, 20:03
Once you understand what is happening (going to happen!) against LP's they lose their efectiveness, and then it is difficult for them to play a positive shot to win a point.

Just to firm up my point here (if you've read the previous posts). LP are annoying to play against at first, but once you understand them they're predictable and playable. No problems there, and you've said as much.

Now, frictionless are something else. They're just NOT predictable. They are, in fact, almost impossible to read consistently because of the difference in friction levels between the top of the pimples (no friction) and the sides (regular friction). The sides don't come into play on every shot, and I defy most non-superhuman players to accurately predict what's going on 100% of the time. You have to read the ball in flight and off the table alone, which gives frictionless players an unfair advantage.

In fact, the argument is that f/less broke an existing ITTF rule regarding the whole of the playing surface of the rubber being of consistent playing characteristics. It would be like me having a single sheet of rubber, one half being Super Anti, and the other being Tenergy (an extreme example, but you get my drift).

Explaining to junior players that this is the reason they just lost to a crabbing over-70 duffer who didn't hit a single shot in anger is tricky. I don't think anyone really minds losing to a player who puts more into their game, but this kind of play is obviously highly based around the odd equipment, and the reliance on the opponent not having played much against that equipment before. Hence, it feels unfair to newer players, and it's hard enough getting juniors into the sport as it is. We don't need REALLY WEIRD equipment making it harder, so down with f/less pips! Boo!

RMaxwellUSN
26th February 2009, 20:45
Actually, alot of the old leyland bats was capable of spin reversal. The chinese devoloped long pimples as a kind of super leyland rubber. (They took the example of **** Miles, the US hardbat chopper, knocking off two, almost three Chinese inverted attackers in a world championships as a reason to devolop their own rubbers and choppers) Thats why it took a few decades to really push it out in the US, because we had some of the first really modern choppers. I have been an attacking player up until recently, and having played the frictionless, I don't see why people got so hot and bothered by it. I'm not very good, but reading spin and understanding what your doing to the ball is TT 101, and its even better when re-inforced by match play. I'm probably gonna buy a sheet of the discontiuned sheet and use it to teach some of the kids on the navy base that I've been mentoring.

RMaxwellUSN
26th February 2009, 20:47
And by the way, I can hit pretty well with my pimples. Not as good as short pips, but enough to make my opponent think twice of pushing my chop.

Chopfloat
26th February 2009, 23:28
No point in sitting on the fence, Jim - you just get splinters!

The point I was trying to make was that to have LP's on both sides makes it even easier for an opponent not more difficult.

Sorry, to cause you umbrage, but stand by the statement - opinions is what sport is about. :happy:

Once you understand what is happening (going to happen!) against LP's they lose their efectiveness, and then it is difficult for them to play a positive shot to win a point.

I certainly know that you were much easier to play when you had LP's. The last time we played up at Sunderland you were using reversed on both sides and were much more difficult to play.:friends:
Well Chris I'll take that as a backhanded compliment,because I've never used reversed both sides for over 20 years.
But in saying that,you're not the first person who didn't realise that I use LP's on the backhand.So,that tells a story!!!
Overall, I agree with you,in the sense that once you know what's going on,playing against LP's becomes easier and then it's a matter of skill and the better player wins most of the time.
But it still can take some players a while before they feel comfortable playing against LP's.:hi::hi:
I take back the "umbrage",as I certainly cannot resent someone who does it better than I.:joker::joker:

Assybish
7th May 2009, 08:02
Update - sadly Andy the league has not adopted the ITTF approved rubbers list - there's a surprise!!!!!!!!
The pathetic failure of ETTA to make the ruling for all members like they did for ball size scoring and voc is a sick joke. We noe have the reality of players playing in different adjacent leagues having to use different racquets as each league can decide what coverings it accepts.:joker:

AndySmith
7th May 2009, 17:49
Yeah, bit of a mess really. I would have said that consistancy was the thing to aim for rather than giving each league the chance to splinter the sport.

Personally, I'm not bothered at all. I got sick of the ranking system last year so I'm not even registering in the Potts winter league this year. Plenty of other, smaller local leagues with a friendlier approach and less cheating by the larger clubs.

Ruudolph
7th May 2009, 22:05
How about you guys form your own club & adhere to the ITTF rules & regulations, run your own league (if possible) etc etc? You could get those unhappy players to join as well?

AndySmith
8th May 2009, 07:11
There's a lot of apathy out there. Many players just want to turn up, play and go home, without thinking about rules, regs, and dwindling player numbers. I'm not sure a breakaway league would survive.

It's OK though - we have a fair few options in Staffordshire, with smaller local leagues in Stone, Crewe, Leek and Stafford. I even play in the Walsall league from time to time (I live in Stoke and work in Walsall). The main Potts league is the biggest one, but I'd rather avoid all the politics and arguements and get back to enjoying the sport.

Assybish
9th May 2009, 09:53
sorry to disagree Andy but Leek league only has 4 teams!, stone league is shrinking fast - hardly any juniors anywhere average age of players in Potteries is over 60 - truth is TT in the potteries is dying if not already dead.:covereyes: