Now that's a REAL Hardbat.

[Boneman]

Just cobbled together an LKT Instinct 5-ply and REISMAN Devil Red skins.

In a word: AWESOME

[Crispione]

Do you have a picture larry?

[Boneman]

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b123/bonemanrides/hardbat_1.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b123/bonemanrides/hardbat_2.jpg

Interestingly enough, the rubber bears the ITTF logo (as far as I know it is NOT ITTF legal?) and.... emblazoned with "ENGLAND" on it as well.

Even has a classic SMELL to it. Gotta say, this bat has made me feel so IN CONTROL of the ball...

It's kinda scary....

[Crispione]

Larry, Reisman rubbers are manufactured in England by the Johnson family who now live on the Isle of Man. ATP is the name of their compny.

Originally the length of the pimps was similiar to those of the Hardbat era at around 0.8mm, but the ITTF would not ratify these as they were considered too short (weird decision for short pimps, or what?) so they remade them at 1.0mm to get ITTF approval.

So if you see the rubber without the ITTF logo it is part of the original batches, with the logo they are the later batches. Not sure whether they are still legal as it would depend on whether the Johnson's kept paying the £2,000 per year to the ITTF needed to continue the license. That amount is a bit steep for a small company supplying a small part of the market.

My cynical side thinks that maybe the ITTF is trying to protect the big manufacturers from fair and/or new competition.

Mark Johnson tells me they hope to restart making the rubber in the new year.

[JKC]

It isn't on the ITTF list, so you couldn't use it in any official (non-hardbat) competitions though technically local league should be fine..

[Francis]

Reisman rubbers were ITTF authorised during half a season, but they went out of the ITTF list because the distributor went into liquidation, and couldn't pay the fees to the ITTF anymore.

[Crispione]

Shame. You would think that once a rubber has been approved - it stays approved as long as it's not been modified.

But this wouldn't help pay the ITTF officials expenses - would it??:redcard:

[Annie]

Does anyone know an offical on the ITTF? It would be good to hear thier side of the story if different.

[Boneman]

How cool is that. Playing with "controversial" rubber. :rocker: Interestingly enough, as it's on the USATT HARDBAT list, I can play it at any USATT sanctioned event, hardbat or not. We even have the colour waiver here (except for "Open" events at the National Level, there I would need black / red).

I played two (hardbat) matches on Friday with it and was astounded at the control... particular blocking smashes. My one opponent slammed about four at me with all he had only to see them pop merrily back across the net much to the surprise of both of us. Not that I would let on I was surprised.... :redcard:


Johnson family, eh? I like it. My Paternal Grandmother's maiden name was Johnson.
It would be fantastic ti see it back in production as from my personal observation there seems to be a bit of an increase in interest in the "Classic" game of late.

[Jay Turberville]

How cool is that. Playing with "controversial" rubber. :rocker: Interestingly enough, as it's on the USATT HARDBAT list, I can play it at any USATT sanctioned event, hardbat or not. We even have the colour waiver here (except for "Open" events at the National Level, there I would need black / red).

I played two (hardbat) matches on Friday with it and was astounded at the control... particular blocking smashes. My one opponent slammed about four at me with all he had only to see them pop merrily back across the net much to the surprise of both of us. Not that I would let on I was surprised....


To be clear, there are three USATT tournaments where that racket would not be legal. Otherwise you are good to go.

"3.2.1.3..2
In US tournaments other than the US Open, US Open Team Championships, and the North American Team Championships, Rackets complying with the rules for hardbat competition shall be legal. See USATT web site for specifications of hardbat rackets."

That ATP rubber is essentially in the same class as Leyland and a few other non-ITTF approved rubbers.

BTW, the ITTF supposedly does ongoing random sampling of rubbers, so I can understand why there would have to be an ongoing or repeating fee. That said, it seems to me that any rubber that goes out of production should be grandfathered for some time period without the need for a fee since the need for ongoing sampling no longer exists. There should be an approval extension of a few years for such rubbers. My understanding is that the testing fee is around $450 U.S. and the authorization fee is an additional $500.

BTW, for the rest of the group, the 5-ply Instinct is the racket I've been using. While it is of a standard modern shape and style, the blade is surprisingly flexible. Far more flexible than you'd expect from 5-ply blade with a modern shape.

It is also quite light at about 74g as opposed to the specified 85g. So while certainly not a classic blade, it has some of the classic playing characteristics. I really like this blade. I do find that the curved edge of the blade where my middle finger rests as I grip the blade is a bit sharp, so I round that edge with a file to increase grip comfort. Of course, the finish is a bit rough as you might expect from an inexpensive blade. I also give the handle and blade edges a light sanding with 400 grit sandpaper to give it a nicer, more finished overall feel.

I think this is a much more "hardbat friendly" blade than either of the two LKT Toxic blades. Those two seem to be classic mostly in shape, but not in how they play.

[Boneman]

For the record, I had procured the Instinct 5-ply pursuant to Jay's positive comments on another board. For all the reasons he sets forth. I've never had a bat that was so adept at popping back slams as this one... from 6" off the floor even.

Not only that but it works well attacking, countering, chopping. I have one more match (finals!) to complete here in our tourney at work. After that, I'll be full-time hardbatting with this thing. I feel it has GREAT potential that I have yet to explore fully.

I don't know how it would work with other rubber but with the Reisman, I'm really enjoying the heck out of it. It IS quite light too. Pursuant to the attributes of my olde arthritic scapula, that's a real plus!

[Boneman]

BTW Jay... that pic is awesome. Is that cropped from the boat picture?

[Jay Turberville]

No. Just me playing around with a wide angle lens. I did a portrait of my dog, Pepsi, that way also.

http://www.jayandwanda.com/dpreview/Pepsi_1485.jpg

[Boneman]

LOL... Pepsi... the dog is absolutely coloured like Pepsi for sure. I could have a blast morphing that with Corel Photopaint.

How does he fair with table tennis balls? I have three Boxers. The largest, Tucker, had decided that table tennis balls are wonderfully "crunchy"....:redcard:

You can bet I keep the robot well hidden from the old boy!

[Jay Turberville]

LOL... Pepsi... the dog is absolutely coloured like Pepsi for sure. I could have a blast morphing that with Corel Photopaint.

How does he fair with table tennis balls? I have three Boxers. The largest, Tucker, had decided that table tennis balls are wonderfully "crunchy"....:redcard:

You can bet I keep the robot well hidden from the old boy!

Bounce a table tennis ball in the house and Pepsi comes running. She absolutely loves chasing table tennis balls. I simply cannot have her in the garage if I'm using the robot. She won't crunch the ball right away, but certainly will ruin it pretty quickly.

[Boneman]

Excellent. I set my table and robot up on the back deck. The dogs observe through the sliding glass door.

I'm sure that they are fully convinced that I... am insane.

They worry.... I'm sure. ;-)

[Jay Turberville]

Getting back on topic ... this is the throat of my LKT Instinct 5-ply. Because I like to grip high on the handle, I smooth off the edge of the throat of the blade where my middle finger rests. Classic blades with less of a blade throat don't generall present this comfort issue for me.

[Boneman]

Getting back on topic ... this is the throat of my LKT Instinct 5-ply. Because I like to grip high on the handle, I smooth off the edge of the throat of the blade where my middle finger rests. Classic blades with less of a blade throat don't generall present this comfort issue for me.

Interesting. I may do something similar... or if nothing else, "break" those edges. If that's where your finger rests.... it would appear you're left handed?

[Jay Turberville]

Interesting. I may do something similar... or if nothing else, "break" those edges. If that's where your finger rests.... it would appear you're left handed?


Nope. Not left handed. This picture shows how my third finger tends to ride up on the throat - though I think I usually have it wrapped more than shown here.

[Boneman]

Ah, I see now. If I recall correctly... in baseball terminology... almost like "choking up" on the bat.

Once my Instinct gets a little more "seasoned", I'll loot at the "shiny" spots on the wood and see if any of it needs a little "adjusting". I played for 2 hours last night with it against all the squishys. I did quite well actually.

Methinks once we're more "attuned", it will work out very nicely.

[Jay Turberville]

Ah, I see now. If I recall correctly... in baseball terminology... almost like "choking up" on the bat.

Once my Instinct gets a little more "seasoned", I'll loot at the "shiny" spots on the wood and see if any of it needs a little "adjusting". I played for 2 hours last night with it against all the squishys. I did quite well actually.

Methinks once we're more "attuned", it will work out very nicely.

Because the Instinct is not as well finished as the higher priced rackets, I immediately felt the the edge of the racket digging into my finger. I'm sure this is something fairly unique to me and the way I hold the racket.

That said, I think these rackets benefit by going over the handle and edges one time with some 400 grit sandpaper to give the blade a more finished feel. But that is hardly necessary.

[Nomadpat]

I'm curious why you two chose the Instinct rather than the Instinct+? More control? I guess I worry about the weight being too light?

[Chopfloat]

Welcome, nomadpat. Nice to see another transatlantic transmission!:trumpet:

[Jay Turberville]

I'm curious why you two chose the Instinct rather than the Instinct+? More control? I guess I worry about the weight being too light?

If you don't like a light racket, then you might not like it. I like a light racket. IMO, racket speed is important for generating spin. IMO, hardbat is still a spin game. I never considered the 7 ply version becaue I didn't want the extra speed. I might give it a try later on once I get more consistent with the slower 5 ply. And be sure, that the Instinct 5 ply is definitely a slow blade.

BTW, I have three of these and one is clearly slower than the others.

If you chop a lot and/or like a heavy racket, then this may not be what you want. If you are an all around or attacking player, then the Instinct is worth considering - and not much of a risk at less than $20.

[Boneman]

If you don't like a light racket, then you might not like it. I like a light racket. IMO, racket speed is important for generating spin.

Most particularly in hardbat. I own three of the "Instinct 5's" myself and at first thought their lightness as being "Chintzy".... Not the case. One thing for sure though, you miss the "sweet spot" and boy the bat tells you!

Now... on that note, just for fun, I procured from Zeropong one of their THREE ply, oversized blades. I'm awaiting it's arrival now. Unfortunately, the ATP Reisman is currently out of stock... so this will initially be skinned with Butterfly OX. Stay tuned!


IMO, hardbat is still a spin game.

Absolutely. However, it's not spin for the sake of DECEPTION and / or TRICKERY. I've heard it said that in hardbat, spin is used more so to control the flight of the ball. In hardbat yes, you can still generate goodly quantities of spin, but it's pretty obvious that you're doing it.


I never considered the 7 ply version becaue I didn't want the extra speed. I might give it a try later on once I get more consistent with the slower 5 ply. And be sure, that the Instinct 5 ply is definitely a slow blade.

Jay's right... it's slow but I'm finding mine affords me near surgical precision if I have a shot that I can set up properly. I'm still exploring the capabilities but I hit angles with this thing that I would have never thought possible before.


BTW, I have three of these and one is clearly slower than the others.

Jay is in a fairly meteorologically stable region too... so it's not like 100% RH one day and 15% the next. So what he's experiencing I'm sure is attributable to manufacturing and material variances. You'll have that sort of thing with wood.

Hmmmm... now here's a product idea for you... as they make a big deal out of it for guitars and such... howzabout a "Bat Humidor". ;-)


If you chop a lot and/or like a heavy racket, then this may not be what you want. If you are an all around or attacking player, then the Instinct is worth considering - and not much of a risk at less than $20.

Thinking on this a bit.... I've actually had to SLOW DOWN ... with this bat. It seems that since I've been using it, I've been a bit ahead of myself swinging at the ball. As far as "Monetary Risk", these bats are a bargain. Yeah, they may not have the "Concourse" finishes that one has come to expect (and pay dearly for!) from other manufacturers... but if you're into experimenting to look for what works well and don't have a fortune to spend, this is the ticket!