2009 USATT Hardbat Open Finals

[Jay Turberville]

The Hardbat Finals from the U.S. Nationals are now online in glorious HD resolution. You can find them at:

www.youtube.com/wturber

You will need a fairly fast internet connection to watch the games in HD. If your connection is slow, turn of the HD function to get smooth playback.

[Nick]

Looking at their strokes, both Runyan and Baldonado are occasional hardbat players who have grown up on sponge. When I started playing, the top hardbat players were different in that they played longer strokes, had greater hand speed and were far more parsimonious i.e. they made very few unenforced errors. I must watch one of the BATTS tournaments and see how things hacve changed.

[Jay Turberville]

Looking at their strokes, both Runyan and Baldonado are occasional hardbat players who have grown up on sponge. When I started playing, the top hardbat players were different in that they played longer strokes, had greater hand speed and were far more parsimonious i.e. they made very few unenforced errors. I must watch one of the BATTS tournaments and see how things have changed.

I don't know Baldonado's complete history, but he is from the Philippines and I understand that he is an accomplished "Liha" (sandpaper) player.

As for strokes, it is my opinion that the classic strokes were destined to eventually change and evolve. It is worth noting that the top players aren't using the more classic strokes - though that isn't really conclusive of much. I wonder if the older and more consistent strokes simply won't prevail in the face of the a more modern approach. That was a concern expressed in the 1950s regarding Reisman, Miles, and the up and coming Japanese penholder styles. But with the advent of sponge and sandwich rubber, we'll never really know what the answer would have been.

[Crispione]

I don't know Baldonado's complete history, but he is from the Philippines and I understand that he is an accomplished "Liha" (sandpaper) player.

As for strokes, it is my opinion that the classic strokes were destined to eventually change and evolve. It is worth noting that the top players aren't using the more classic strokes - though that isn't really conclusive of much. I wonder if the older and more consistent strokes simply won't prevail in the face of the a more modern approach. That was a concern expressed in the 1950s regarding Reisman, Miles, and the up and coming Japanese penholder styles. But with the advent of sponge and sandwich rubber, we'll never really know what the answer would have been.

When I started out on the Hardbat trail in the summer I naively thought that we coud get close to the lassic hardbat of the golden era. Now I would tend to agree with Jay that even the HB game would have evolved over a period of time - after all the HB style of the 50s wa a little different from tht of the 20's & 30's .

As most players will be coming from sponge play it's inevitable that they will bring sponge strokes with them.

[Gnopgnipster]

When I started out on the Hardbat trail in the summer I naively thought that we coud get close to the lassic hardbat of the golden era. Now I would tend to agree with Jay that even the HB game would have evolved over a period of time - after all the HB style of the 50s wa a little different from tht of the 20's & 30's .

As most players will be coming from sponge play it's inevitable that they will bring sponge strokes with them.

Richard Bergmann says in his book "Twenty-One Up" that "World class players are judged on merit, and their technique carefully examined and copied by untold numbers of newcomers who in the course of their endeavours may conceivably surpass the masters and develop better styles and improved methods, which may be similar to traditional ones, yet not quite the same. Thus we can move forward to an era of new strokes producing still better results, and in turn see the application of suitable new counter-strokes."

Cheers and a Happy New Year to ALL!!!!http://www.tabletennistalk.co.uk/forum/images/icons/dance3.gif

[Jay Turberville]

Richard Bergmann says in his book "Twenty-One Up" that "World class players are judged on merit, and their technique carefully examined and copied by untold numbers of newcomers who in the course of their endeavours may conceivably surpass the masters and develop better styles and improved methods, which may be similar to traditional ones, yet not quite the same. Thus we can move forward to an era of new strokes producing still better results, and in turn see the application of suitable new counter-strokes."

Cheers and a Happy New Year to ALL!!!!http://www.tabletennistalk.co.uk/forum/images/icons/dance3.gif

And we should all keep in mind that we have no modern "masters" playing hardbat. I don't know of any player in his or her athletic prime who is putting full effort into hardbat. Trevor Runyan, who is currently dominating U.S. Hardbat reportedly puts far less into hardbat than into his regular sandwich play. And players like me are far past their athletic prime and while certainly enthusiastic about learning and playing, I make a living doing something quite different.

What we would see if we had our best athletes playing hardbat is anybody's guess.

P.S. Keep in mind that the typical playing venue has a limited playing area that hampers players who might otherwise choose to chop away from the table.

[Nick]

As most players will be coming from sponge play it's inevitable that they will bring sponge strokes with them.

Of course they will because they are not hardbat players.

I guess my point was that these players (USATT hardbat finalists) had quite obviously learnt to play with sponge and, as a result, were making loads of unenforced errors, around 6 or 7 points per game each, by playing 'reflex' strokes such as lazy half-volley blocks into the bottom of the net. I acknowledge that such strokes are very effective with 2mm of sponge behind them, but would never be coached in hardbat.

In my humble opinion, a genuine hardbat player i.e. someone who has learnt to play with the strokes and mindset of a hardbat player, will never make as many unenforced errors. In the case above, approx 33% of all points won (or should I say lost?), were unenforced errors - not particularly impressive for the national finals of any sport, whether netball, tiddlywinks or hardbat.

I recognise that hardbat, like any other genre, will continue to develop in technology, stroke play, tactics, physiology etc. But, for hardbat to develop as a sport in its own right, you need top players that have been brought up to play the sport and are totally committed to it. You need athletic sporting role models, not just 'weekend' or 'occasional' players (like me and many other contributors to this forum) who pick up a hardbat for a bet, a trip down memory lane or an amusing challenge.

How many hardbat coaches are there? How many youngsters are being taught the skills, tactics and physical demands of top hardbat play? I would suggest almost none and, if I'm right, then hardbat is not yet a sport, just an amusing diversion.

[Boneman]

Nick makes a great point about "REFLEX" strokes. My approach to hardbat obviously is much different than when I played sponge. Still, when backed into a corner or caught off-guard, the sponge stroke comes out via reflexes. Usually with dubious results - read - unforced errors.

With that in mind, I've noticed that when I truly concentrate on changing my paradigm when playing hardbat.... i.e. concentrate on pressing small advantages and waiting for and building up to... the big one, I do far better than if I attempt to go on the attack at the outset. In fact, it seems to unsettle many opponents that there is no third ball attack.

They're waiting for it and when it fails to occur it's so unexpected. Of course, that only happens for a point or two. You see, in hardbat, there are more strategies than third or fifth ball attack. In fact, that tends to be my biggest problem when playing. I have to keep in mind... "WAIT FOR IT".

It's interesting as well, to Jay's point, athletes in their "prime" not being hardbat players. I guess it's not as attractive as the sponge game? Dunno. Perhaps it's not promoted as much? Hard to say.

I have a young man that plays at our club on Monday nights that has been utterly ham-handed playing sponge. Imagine my surprise when his game improved VASTLY when he picked up an hardbat. I immediately encouraged him to continue with it, yet the following week, there he was blundering about with his sponge bat again. So I played him but asked that he play me with his hardbat. He did much better and actually enjoyed it much more (less frustration).

As to the "Classic Game" and the "Classic Strokes" attendant thereto, we may never see the likes of it again. Unless of course we find ourselves observing someone such as Marty Reisman swinging at the ball. Everything evolves. Whether it be due to sponge players influence or just that there aren't any "Classic" coaches out there.

Bottom line for me... and I've heard it from many others as well, the hardbat game is more fun. When a long and protracted rally ends due to one or both players waxing hysterical with laughter over the antics of the point... well there's nothing better IMHO. Hence, I'm a full time Hardbatter and an ambassador for the hardbat game.

Eegad..... my apologies... seems I've once again succumbed to bloviation......:redcard:

[Jay Turberville]

I guess my point was that these players (USATT hardbat finalists) had quite obviously learnt to play with sponge and, as a result, were making loads of unenforced errors, around 6 or 7 points per game each, by playing 'reflex' strokes such as lazy half-volley blocks into the bottom of the net. I acknowledge that such strokes are very effective with 2mm of sponge behind them, but would never be coached in hardbat.

In my humble opinion, a genuine hardbat player i.e. someone who has learnt to play with the strokes and mindset of a hardbat player, will never make as many unenforced errors. In the case above, approx 33% of all points won (or should I say lost?), were unenforced errors - not particularly impressive for the national finals of any sport, whether netball, tiddlywinks or hardbat.

I recognise that hardbat, like any other genre, will continue to develop in technology, stroke play, tactics, physiology etc. But, for hardbat to develop as a sport in its own right, you need top players that have been brought up to play the sport and are totally committed to it. You need athletic sporting role models, not just 'weekend' or 'occasional' players (like me and many other contributors to this forum) who pick up a hardbat for a bet, a trip down memory lane or an amusing challenge.

How many hardbat coaches are there? How many youngsters are being taught the skills, tactics and physical demands of top hardbat play? I would suggest almost none and, if I'm right, then hardbat is not yet a sport, just an amusing diversion.

I'm not so sure about not coaching half-volley blocks. So much depends on how large your playing venue is. Perhaps chopping is preferred - if you have a large enough playing area.

But you do make some good points. I'd just like to add that I'm no longer an "occassional" player. I'm a full time hardbat player and I'm studying old footage and reading books by such top players of the past like Miles and Barna. There are other full time hardbat players out there as well. Ed Ball and Adoni Maropis in the U-2000 are full time hardbat. So is Scott Gordon. Of course, I'm fifty so even though I'm a full time hardbatter, I'm never going to truly master the sport. But I can certainly go much further than I am now if I put forth the effort.

"Unforced" errors are a mainstay of modern table tennis, and will be hard to eradicate from hardbat. When I play hardbat against sponge, I currently feel "forced" to either attack sooner or place my shots with great precision - often low or deep or both - to keep my opponent from gaining the initiative with his sponge. And what that tends to teach me when I play a hardbat player is that this approach puts my opponent on his heels. This was something that was already happening in the fifties with many penhold players from Japan.

So some of this is, I believe, a natural progression to the sport and some of it is the influence of sandwich rubber. I think it can be very hard to distinguish which is at play in any one circumstance. But the more serious hardbat players that we have, the more we can get a glimpse of what hardbat can be in this modern age.

[Boneman]

I'm fifty so even though I'm a full time hardbatter, I'm never going to truly master the sport.

LOL... I'm fifty as well Jay... let us not confuse "mastery" with "mastery combined with the indefatigablity and reflexes of youth", OK?

I know perhaps you're not an huge fan, but Marty Reisman did defeat all comers at the age of 67... so there's always HOPE. That gives us each about 17 years to practice up. ;-)

[Jay Turberville]

LOL... I'm fifty as well Jay... let us not confuse "mastery" with "mastery combined with the indefatigablity and reflexes of youth", OK?

I know perhaps you're not an huge fan, but Marty Reisman did defeat all comers at the age of 67... so there's always HOPE. That gives us each about 17 years to practice up. ;-)

I'm not a "non-fan" of Marty either. I like to think I give him the respect he deserves sans the all too common "worship" mode that some others seem to have. There are many things to admire about Marty.

Yes. Marty defeated all comers at 67. But who was "coming?" In his prime, Marty was certainly at a "master" level. He was world class. But when world class table tennis moved away from hardbat, we stopped having masters in that area. So at 67 "all comers" were far from master class. Today, Trevor Runyan dominates hardbat in the U.S. But I wouldn't call him a master. He's simply the best in an area where players are not making major commitments to the sport.

And that is why I agree that a player over 50 - given an appropriate level of committment - could win the U.S. Hardbat Nationals. It would take a lot of skill to do so and to beat the likes of Trevor since the over fifty guy has at least a thirty year age deficit working against him. And in the hopeful case that hardbat grows substantially in the meantime, the over fifty guy will be working hard just to keep pace.

Bottom line for me is that we no longer have master players in hardbat (at least in the U.S.) who are even close to their physical prime. We have instead a big mix of skills and athleticism and hence a mix of styles of play.

[Tinykin]

I know Scott Gordon disagrees, but I still think that those Chinese penholder players of the eighties espouse the natural path that HB would have followed. Jiang Jialing used a pips out bat with 0.5 or sometimes 1.0 sponge. His game, to me, was much more HB play than sponge.

[Boneman]

Bottom line for me is that we no longer have master players in hardbat (at least in the U.S.) who are even close to their physical prime. We have instead a big mix of skills and athleticism and hence a mix of styles of play.

Much truth there for certain. So... in a way we're like the Jedi.... 'cept we're all "Learners" and not "Masters"... ;-)

BTW, there's a fellow at work.... plays and has played nothing but hardbat. We're a damn good match and often our games will go to 25 points or more. I'm his seniour... by 20+ years.

Hardbat is in more than a few ways... a bit of an equalizer of sorts, eh?

Happy New Year to EVERYONE!!!!