Fred's Been Practicing

[JKC]

Following a few quiet weeks from me (I have been watching quietly and occasionally commenting). I am making my return the forums (with a bang - you decide).


Fred's latest vid - discuss.

Q_KAMNzWtwM

[Tinykin]

Awesome.

[JKC]

That pretty much sums up my opinion of how he is playing at the moment too.

[Barry White]

Magic, just make Fred aware of his free arm, there is little or no movement.

[Wiggy63]

Magic, just make Fred aware of his free arm, there is little or no movement.

Nothing wrong with that, unless you've swallowed a coaching manual, IMO, 'static free arm' players are harder to read.

[Belisar]

I agree with Barry. It has the potential to leave you a bit unbalanced, does not help any upper body rotation and in Fred's case gets a bit close to his playing arm at times - maybe I have swallowed a coaching manual as well.

To be fair it can be hard to comment when you see a few minutes of action. I think you need to see the players for a while to coach properly as everyone is different and I am not one for producing robotic players who all look the same.

Looks like Fred is hitting a lot harder and has improved an awful lot since the last time we saw him. Nice one - looking good.

[JKC]

I do encourage him to hold it higher, but he doesn't tend to use it to help his body rotation at all (in fact it goes the wrong way quite often). I do think he uses it to help with his balance though. When he gets tall enough to crouch a little more I think the freearm will be less of a problem as he will be less prone to leaning back after a shot.

[Wiggy63]

I agree with Barry. It has the potential to leave you a bit unbalanced, does not help any upper body rotation and in Fred's case gets a bit close to his playing arm at times - maybe I have swallowed a coaching manual as well.



I agree there is the potential for balance problems, a slack free arm managed to get Schlager to the world singles title though, Klampar was similarly very low on free arm use, and the danger can IMO be to overcoach players. The free arm can be a giveaway as to a players intentions.

[KieranNCFC]

Very good for his age. Dont know what his matchplay is like, its fine doing rallys and stuff but make him play games and make him choose what shot to do in what situation.

Looking good though, some superb winning smashes in the first 20 seconds.

Are those pink shoes JKC? :thumbsup:

[Chopfloat]

Excellent :rocker:Fred's looking good, James.
I hope he's not using Wiggy's concoction as a booster! Marmite's good for kids!:joker:

[Barry White]

Nothing wrong with that, unless you've swallowed a coaching manual, IMO, 'static free arm' players are harder to read.
The reason I said that to make him aware of his free arm, was for balance. Darrens best shots in a match are when he moves in the opposite direction to where he is playing the ball. I do feel that you are risking people voicing their comments, with this type of answer Andy.

[Wiggy63]

The reason I said that to make him aware of his free arm, was for balance. Darrens best shots in a match are when he moves in the opposite direction to where he is playing the ball. I do feel that you are risking people voicing their comments, with this type of answer Andy.

Why? do we all have to conform to some kind of single thought process? Whilst I agree with you that using the free arm is an aid to balance, players use it to more and lesser degrees, and I think you'll find that my comments were accompanied by 'IMO' meaning that its my own opinion, not something that you or anyone else has to agree with. IMO some of the hardest players to play against give little away with their free arm, because they have found a natural level of balance, conserative use when compared to the heavily coached technique of 'both arms at 90 degrees' rammed down kids throats in the 70's and 80's. Voice your comments please, that's what I thought this place was for....

Back to Fred, I think he uses his arm to balance himself in a natural way, and at no point looks off balance. he's got alot of growing to do too, so it may be beneficial to let his technique develop naturally as he grows, without over grooving when he is small.

[Dave Robson]

I think the word that hasnt been mentioned (as always) is balance - not in the "balanced" way but in the mix and use of the free arm within the stroke use and choice. In other words get the balance between the use of the free arm being under and over used.

The lack of use or non use of the free arm will create problems later in my opinion, which is not the case here so not a worry.

Thats my opinion voiced:coin:

[JKC]

Very good for his age. Dont know what his matchplay is like, its fine doing rallys and stuff but make him play games and make him choose what shot to do in what situation.

Looking good though, some superb winning smashes in the first 20 seconds.

Are those pink shoes JKC? :thumbsup:

Those are my new silver Dawei shoes and they have the best grip of any shoes I have ever had. They also have excellent grip in the snow which is very useful today.

I haven't smeared Freddie's bat with marmite, we always use this-

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2qPTtoQlnhI/RxTLwwTy1CI/AAAAAAAAAFw/ioWRWXuxR7o/s320/squeeze.jpg

He does have a new bat though, which really seems to have given him an extra bit of control on his more powerful shots.

I think one problem Fred has with the free arm is that he stands so close to the table that if he used it in the 'textbook' way he would be hitting the table with it constantly or would have to stand further away - not something I want to encourage at this stage.

[Belisar]

I think one problem Fred has with the free arm is that he stands so close to the table that if he used it in the 'textbook' way he would be hitting the table with it constantly or would have to stand further away - not something I want to encourage at this stage.

Fair point this. Also the one where if he were taller he would more naturally lean forwards (which in turn may help his arm) is worthy of note.

I would simply look to set as many "good" habits as I can at the moment (and what constitutes a good habit is going to be open to individual judgements).

As he progresses it could be harder to get him to make adjustments to his free arm as that could upset other areas of his game. For me it is not something that will make or break him as a player, I just see more pluses than minuses.

I for one am happy that different people have different views on how to coach and get the best out of people. Nice to see a few views and reasons.

I do have a question though - what blade is he using ? Does he have a smaller handle or is he using a normal one ?

[JKC]

He is using a Galaxy K-4 which started of life with a standard sized flared handle, but was lovingly sanded down to a more appropriate size for his hand by me. He has 2 sheets of 1.8mm Inspirit Quattro UL 35deg and it all adds up to a nice light bat with reasonable speed, good control and feeling.

[Barry White]

I have posted on another forum. Credit where credits due, amazing Freddie. Wiggy loves an argument. We cant all be perfect!

[Wiggy63]

I have posted on another forum. Credit where credits due, amazing Freddie. Wiggy loves an argument. We cant all be perfect!


I like it:joker: at last your getting to know me Barry!

[Greenflash]

Wiggy produces contraversy and that is great on forums with different view points. Fred is doing fabulous and the height gain will make the free arm more included.

[Lefty]

I, can't see the vid for some reason! but i think that different styles can only be a good thing, and agree with wiggy that as long as he is'nt losing balance then its not a problem, I don't see why people would be offended by that comment.

Wiggy why have you got this argumentative rep on here? I presume it's just banter because you never came across like that in all the years I knew you.

Back to young Freddie [I presume he's young] the shame is if he ever gets to a level where he is involved with the England set up, his individual style will be beaten out of him, and will end up playing the same way all our junior's do and have for sometime now. Will they ever learn that other than a few exceptions it's not working??

Mark

[JKC]

You could try this link to the Youtube page Mark, but other than that, I don't know why you can't see the vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_KAMNzWtwM

If ever you get to meet him, as he is also a lefty, maybe you could show him that nasty short top and sidespin serve you used to do which was very awkward to deal with. You are right about him being young by the way, he is 6.

I think wiggy just likes to pose questions and promote discussion, that is all. It doesn't hurt to question our own thinking from time to time.

[Tinykin]

There's no stroke or style that can't be changed or modified later if the player gets really serious about their game. Most players who have training time, keep on experimenting and modifying their game right up to the day they hang up their bats.

[Barry White]

I, can't see the vid for some reason! but i think that different styles can only be a good thing, and agree with wiggy that as long as he is'nt losing balance then its not a problem, I don't see why people would be offended by that comment.

Wiggy why have you got this argumentative rep on here? I presume it's just banter because you never came across like that in all the years I knew you.

Back to young Freddie [I presume he's young] the shame is if he ever gets to a level where he is involved with the England set up, his individual style will be beaten out of him, and will end up playing the same way all our junior's do and have for sometime now. Will they ever learn that other than a few exceptions it's not working??


Mark

I am not worried what anyone thinks, but I know a number of people will not disclose their identity, because they do not want to be told that they are wrong, even if someone say IMO. Until they get to know the other people and what they are like. I thank Wiggy for introducing me to these forums. I could rewrite the ETTA coaching manual, but I know that not everyone would agree with what I coach.

James as a coach, I would be interested in how you got Fred to this level and what your plans you have for the future.

[Belisar]

I know that not everyone would agree with what I coach.


I do not see this as a problem. TT is an individual sport and there should be a place for individual styles of playing and coaching. For me a coach needs to be flexible and coach the best way for the player not the best way for the coach (not always easy to do).

One of the good things of a site like this should be where we can compare thoughts and reasons - we need to share information, pick and choose what we think works best for us and take it away to help us improve.

Tinykin correctly made a comment about players looking to experiment and modify their game, the same should be true for coaching as well.

I look forward to further videos and improvement in Fred's game.

[Wiggy63]

Wiggy why have you got this argumentative rep on here? I presume it's just banter because you never came across like that in all the years I knew you.


Mark

Its because I just like to offer an altertative view Mark, as you know (and everyone else does) I'm not a particularly disagreeable soul in real life, most people on here know me personally, Its just that when you have time to sit down and really think about what you wish to say, I (strangely) like to offer the alternative view. They've just about come to terms with it on TTT, and know I don't ever mean anything personally, its just my internet style. I love Crispionie, he hits a big spot with me, he looks at 'why' and 'how' not just acceptance.

[JKC]

@ Barry White

There is nothing magical or exciting about what I have done with Fred over the last 4-5 years really. It has just been a matter of spending lots of time with him since he was two, kicking, hitting, bouncing, and catching balls.

At first we made time to kick the football to each other most evenings and then (to annoy the wife mainly) I stuck a TT bat in his hand and started bouncing the ball for him to hit it back to me and found that he could do it sometimes then most of the time and then every time. He was always very motivated anyway and when at his Granny's house he would sneak off and play swingball in the garden on his own to the extent where he would give himself blisters. We played cricket too from time to time.

I took him to the Table Tennis centre just before he was 4 1/2 as a treat to hit the ball for him fully expecting him to find it too difficult and get bored, but he thoroughly enjoyed it and he could hit 3 balls over the net in a row pretty quickly hitting in a similar manner to how you might bang a nail into a wall. The second time we went I showed him how to hit a forehand with topspin and we found that he could do that 2-3 times consistently. Since then we have been going around twice a week for maybe 45 mins - 1 hour until he was about 6 when he was allowed to join the coaching locally.

In a typical week currently he has 1 hour with me on a Wednesday, 1 hour at the local coaching session on a Monday(sometimes hitting with me depending on the exercise) followed by 30 mins top table with the local kids, He has another 30 mins top table on a Saturday (missing the coaching due to football) usually followed by 1/2 hour with me and he attends the Regional Dev't squad sessions on a Friday.

If I was to try to put my finger on the one thing which has helped Freddie the most, it wouldn't be Fantastic coaching although I do have strong opinions about how he should form his strokes, move his feet, stand and lots of other stuff. It would be the consistent feeding that I have been able to give to him over the last couple of years. He has probably had 10x the opportunity to hit good quality balls that a beginner practicing with another beginner gets in the first couple of years. We have also used very little multiball (contrary to what is probably recommended) so he understands the importance of consistency. If he doesn't get it back to me reasonably nicely then the rally breaks down.

Anyway, that is the story of Fred up to 6 3/4. In the future, he will obviously be given all the opportunities we can to continue with his sport whilst he wants to do it. Obviously, I would like to see how far he can get and at the moment I am just trying to equip him with the skills he will need later on if he chooses to take our sport more seriously. I think that the more of your game which is automatic then the easier it is to do the more complicated stuff later on. It can't really do him any harm anyway whatever he chooses to do in the future and it is a lot more healthy than what a lot of kids his age get up to.

[Barry White]

I do not see this as a problem. TT is an individual sport and there should be a place for individual styles of playing and coaching. For me a coach needs to be flexible and coach the best way for the player not the best way for the coach (not always easy to do).

One of the good things of a site like this should be where we can compare thoughts and reasons - we need to share information, pick and choose what we think works best for us and take it away to help us improve.

Tinykin correctly made a comment about players looking to experiment and modify their game, the same should be true for coaching as well.

I look forward to further videos and improvement in Fred's game.

I agree Belisar

[Wiggy63]

Barry, don't worry mate, I'm not critisising you, no way. More the system of coaching that you may/ may not be a part of, I don't know. I have studied deeply TT for the last 10 yrs, and I have made some conclusions myself that fall outside the established views, as I say, these are my views, I don't really care if you value them or not.

Look at this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jyfC6EaBfA&feature=related

This guy ( Eric Boggan) was believe it or not 10 in the world at one point. All I look at is WHY? I accept at that time LP's were rather new and difficult for even the top players in the world, but for gods sake look at him and his technique? making advances is not always governed by a pre-conceived coached mantra, that is all I am saying. He beat Des, when Des was unbeatable by anyone in the UK, I ask WHY? Should we be looking at the reasons for this, more than following a set mantra as to how our future stars should play, because if we do that we are always gonna be second best to China. Ask John Hilton.

Now, would Eric Boggan have been even considered to be anywhere near the England team? The Latest example I can think of is Chris Doran. I sparred with this lad 5/6 years ago at training camps at Lea Green, he was miles behind some other guys of his age, he plays well outside what is considered the 'right' way to play, yet he is out shining them all at the moment, I know why, he is different.

I must add one thing though, at the end of a three day training camp, he was the only guy left who was still asking me for a game.

[Dave Robson]

Are we saying the way forward is to be "different" as in style. I would say if you could come up with something completely different such as punk music was in its day then you stand to be successful.

You would obviously have to stick with that technique then even when considered "ugly" you could progress forward and upwards - the upshot is you would still never ever make the England team, which tends or seems to be a clique on a good day so an ugly style would be impossible. Having said that preano was still damn ugly and effective as we all know but faded unfortunately.

In respect of asking "why" to everything, i see that as a positive view point with answers following and improvement also. The only time i worry about the why is when it becomes why for little or no reason other than to argue black is white so power to the why question and mere mortals such as myself on TTT can as Wiggy cleverly puts it "come to terms with it" ....................

[Wiggy63]

The thing that has made Chris Doran successful is his size. He is a big guy, and he cannot follow the coaching protacol that preaches the big f/hand winner. So what has he done? He has done the only thing he could, stayed solid, b/hands from the b/hand wing, f/hands from the f/hand, no out of position, looking for a f/hand winner, he's just solid, and they can't beat him, go back 40yrs and you have Denis Neale. After all the money injected at a few players, the guy that it seems can truly make a dent in the world rankings (PD excused) is Chris Doran. Bloody good luck to him I say.

[Lefty]

JKC wow just watched it and omg, what talent your lad must have, I have a daughter who is the same age and I have taken her twice to have a go and she struggles to hit the ball let alone get it over the net.

But it's a really interesting story for me, I have a son who was 2 just before Christmas, and the comparisons are amazing, no lie as soon as he could hold things it was a ball he even sleeps with a soft one, it started with football [which he is still mad on] we do hours of just kicking balls around. He has never seen me play tt so i'm not sure where it came from but all of a sudden he started asking for bat and ball, so I bought him a small one from the english open now he is obsessed with it, it's all he does i throw it to him and he just smashes it around the house, his hand eye baffles me. He would do it all day if he could.

You never know they may play some day, national finals would be good ha ha, bet we could get good odds on that.:rocker:

Back to his free arm, to me it looks like its his size that causes it, if he had it in any other position it would hit on the table. I would say keep up the good work unless something is all wrong I would say fine tune, give him a straight line to walk on and he will fall off before the end but point him in the right direction and it looks like he will find his own way there.

Also who are you? it seems you know me.

Mark

[Lefty]

Just watched more of the vid, is it James Brown? can't really see your face but the style looks familiar.

Mark:happy:

[JKC]

You are correct in your observation.

Keep going with your lad, and who knows. At least your wife will understand a bit more than mine does at times.

[Lefty]

Is he using phrases like sniff yet? or is that in the future.

[JKC]

I haven't really discussed the language of table tennis with him or how to subtly wind up opponents. I'm sure that day will come. For now I'm happy leaving him thinking TT is a nice happy sport where everyone smiles all of the time and no one ever shouts or swears.

[BigBottler]

Looks ace to me. I think it's great that you are just encouraging him to enjoy it - even if he's going to be a top flight player that's all that counts at the age of 6 (and for most of us at any age).

I'm no expert on technique, but I'm sure he will modify as he keeps playing. Good technique is important but is not uniform i.e. does Ma Long have exactly the same technique as Wang Li Qin or Wang Hao the same as Ma Lin, Boll the same as Slager etc - no in all cases.

In the end, the differentiating factor will be talent / genius. The players with sound technique, but who have one or more extraordinary capabilities and no serious flaws rise to the top (speed, power, touch / angles, spin, consistency, tactical acumen, determination, handling pressure etc).

Also, unless you are a hothoused Chinese TT player, TT is part of life not the other way round. Family and friends come first.

[Wiggy63]

For Gods sake don't teach him 'Cho' :joker:

[JKC]

I'll ask a certain Scottish BL player for a lesson or two when the time comes or maybe Dale Ajeto.

[Trottski]

Interesting. I have always wondered how you introduce really young kids to the game. I have 2 girls and the 4 year old is just interested in princesses and the colour pink. The 2 year old however likes to smash golf, tt and footballs all over the front room.

[Dave Robson]

Let them do whats best - Golf has more money !

[Wiggy63]

My two eldest were not interested in the slightest, both are boys and are guitar mad. My youngest is a girl (Ella) and she loves TT, she has a proficiency badge which was presented to her in assembly at school. She has always had good co-ordination, but not to a level where TT became easier until she was about 8, that is why I just can't understand how Fred does it, he must have remarkable motor skills.

[Annie]

Let them do whats best - Golf has more money !

That's Northern rational ain't it? :scratchchin:

[JKC]

Why play a sport which is very difficult to make a living at rather than one where lots do. The only problem with sports such as Tennis and Golf is that there is always a kid whose parents have more money than you who can pay for better coaching and lots more of it. At least with TT, Fred gets most of his coaching and a pretty good practice partner for free and we can play just about whenever we want.

[Barry White]

Barry, don't worry mate, I'm not critisising you, no way. More the system of coaching that you may/ may not be a part of, I don't know. I have studied deeply TT for the last 10 yrs, and I have made some conclusions myself that fall outside the established views, as I say, these are my views, I don't really care if you value them or not.

Look at this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jyfC6EaBfA&feature=related

This guy ( Eric Boggan) was believe it or not 10 in the world at one point. All I look at is WHY? I accept at that time LP's were rather new and difficult for even the top players in the world, but for gods sake look at him and his technique? making advances is not always governed by a pre-conceived coached mantra, that is all I am saying. He beat Des, when Des was unbeatable by anyone in the UK, I ask WHY? Should we be looking at the reasons for this, more than following a set mantra as to how our future stars should play, because if we do that we are always gonna be second best to China. Ask John Hilton.

Now, would Eric Boggan have been even considered to be anywhere near the England team? The Latest example I can think of is Chris Doran. I sparred with this lad 5/6 years ago at training camps at Lea Green, he was miles behind some other guys of his age, he plays well outside what is considered the 'right' way to play, yet he is out shining them all at the moment, I know why, he is different.

I must add one thing though, at the end of a three day training camp, he was the only guy left who was still asking me for a game.

The video is fantastic. As a coach I could critisise Eric many things that he does wrong, but in watching it, I was more drawn to what he does right. Some of the things that he was a master at was: He forced his opponent to move on nearly every stroke. He played every stroke within, what I coach, as the boulder area. I coach youngster to imagine carrying a boulder, to visualise this area in front of you. Play every ball within this area. His footwork is very good, what I call the 2 o clock positioning and bouncing on his toes. Mixing spin, pace and direction. Eric would be absolute nightmare to play against, in the same way that John Hilton was, to anyone that had never played him.

[Wiggy63]

Well, I've learned some new terminology, 'the boulder position' good stuff.

[Barry White]

Thank you James for the report on Fred. One problem that players have starting so young is as they get taller they forget to get lower. I am coaching so many different players, so I rarely see the progress. Video analysis makes progress more noticable. I find if they see themselves play and you point out the areas to change, they adapt much quicker.

[Tinykin]

Why play a sport which is very difficult to make a living at rather than one where lots do. The only problem with sports such as Tennis and Golf is that there is always a kid whose parents have more money than you who can pay for better coaching and lots more of it. At least with TT, Fred gets most of his coaching and a pretty good practice partner for free and we can play just about whenever we want.
I doubt that money could give him a better coaching than what he is getting now.
Hint: Remember the Williams sisters and who coached them.

[JKC]

http://www.tabletennistalk.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=386&d=1267254264

He nearly won another game too, just losing 14-12 in the 5th.

[Highside]

Fantastic little player and well done Freddie. These are the things that should be highlighted in the sport.

[Mysterel]

Bravo. Should be an inspiration to any primary school coach. http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:V7EmKwWiIO9V1M:http://www.planebuzz.com/Smiley-face-779143.gif (http://www.planebuzz.com/Smiley-face-779143.gif)

[Spinmaster]

Just looked at Freds videos and deffintely a star in the making aslong as he and others around are committed. Good story to follow. Keep a blog !

[JKC]

It would have been nice to have kept a blog over the last couple of years, but as Fred starts to compete in tournaments over the next year or so I will probably stop the vids etc. to allow him a little space to develop. I don't want him to become the kid that everyone wants to say they have beaten at events.
It is a thought for the end of the summer though when my daughter has her first hit on a proper table. Who knows what will happen then. You may get 3 entries, you might get 3 years worth.

[NativeNewYorker]

Nice to see the blogs rolling now its on the site so look forward to a few being posted to keep us up to speed so to say.

[Crispione]

Wiggy why have you got this argumentative rep on here? I presume it's just banter because you never came across like that in all the years I knew you.
Mark

I don't see that Wiggy is argumentative. he gives his opinion (usually very sound opinions IMO), then rather than give a reasoned response, other people become argumentative with him!!

Fred is looking exceptionally good & seems to improve every time we see him. As for his balance, which is equally as important as good strokes/timing, most of the time it is very good but he does get a little off balance occasionally, but having watched the video a few times, don't think it has anything to do with his free arm. He does seem to slide occasionally. Is the floor a little slippy? Does he need better shoes? If not, perhaps he's getting a little flat footed now & then & needs to keep on his toes just a little more?

He's doing great - he's fantastic for his age & you are doing a good job with him.

[JKC]

Footwork is my current big push with Fred. He does have really good shoes, but the floor does get dusty. The club are in the process of sorting this out though. I think that part of the footwork problem comes from the fact that his feeding has been too good and he hasn't had to move as much as some kids. Also because of the short time he has been playing his anticipation isn't great yet so he can be moving quite late. He has a skipping rope now too, so hopefully that will help if I can convince him to have a go with it.