Have all the recent changes been worth it?

[Moggy]

To save everyone wading through masses of waffle, I'm talking about the larger ball and the 11pt game.

I have just come away from a league match feeling extremely frustrated!
Ok, I lost all my games and that was mostly down to having an off night (plus the opposition playing well :clap:). It got me thinking though, how often do I have that feeling during a season, and how often do I think that's a match to remember?
One thing's for certain is the frustration is more common.

Everyone is so keyed up to play the 11pts and win the point on 3rd ball attack that rallies are shorter and there's no room to play a 'playful' but enjoyable shot. You have to be pumped up and burning adrenaline if you expect to win. Win or lose, three games are quickly over, and you are only just getting into your stride. The ITTF get their wish of more contentious points, but it spoils the enjoyment if you are playing it.

Some games I always look forward to, but even with wins here, I come away wishing to play more and burn up more energy. It's a shame most of the games I recall from the last 30 years are all 21pt games - I can't think of a 11pt I've truely enjoyed.

The larger ball should slow the play and increase rallies. It's actually had the opposite effect, the larger ball is easier to kill with a flat hit, and the rubbers/glues developed to overcome the speed loss have actually allowed players to hit the ball even faster. Where's the fun / skill in hitting a ball so hard that they can't see it and makes it guaranteed not to be returned.

Such is league TT. There's more fun playing TT in practice matches. So perhaps now is the time to quit the league and just play socially.:shok:

But I won't do that. I on the league committee, coach twice a week, run the web site, run a new TT club with funding from the local league:friends:
and I've got a new blade to try out as soon as I can get to a table.:yahoo:

11pts and a big ball were all to increase TV and audience appreciation, but I feel it's to the detriment of the average TT players enjoyment.

Perhaps I'm getting old:comfort:

[Annie]

Moggy this is a great post, I only wish I could comment more knowledgeably.

I think you've covered quite a few things here. Great contribution. :thumbsup:

[HarryBelafonte]

Probably agree.:covereyes:I played local league last night although slightly injured.
I won 3,i gained about 6 points off serve, about 3 third ball rallys and a couple of longer points.I would not have played up to 21.
i would have had to work to hard. I lost 1 end in each game,all after poor starts,when being 4-0 i basically threw that end....and tried to get a good start the next..:happy:

I think this happens at all levels, if a player gets 6-1 7-1 there are not as many comebacks,players re focus on the next end.(the incentive is less)

up to 21 if a player is ahead they could experiment,try new shots etc. again if a player gets a bit flash after a big lead but started to get reeled in ,the mind games and psychological side comes more into play, up to 11 there is not the ebb and flow there used to be.

I agree games up to 21 were more exciting in a way, i remember waldner defeating teng yi from 18-6 down in the second end of world semis in 87.
again in the final he was 1-0 up and 9-3 but was eventually overcome by a great jiang comeback..

the only games i can recall off the top of me head up to 11 are maze s amazing comeback off the floor in world quarters v hao shuai

and the last world final wang 7-1 and 3-1 down,so it can be done.Also i think there are fewer upsets,really there should be more.

I think we need statistical analysis on the points you raised,

are the rallies longer,are there more upsets.is the ball hit harder,what are the percentage of 3 ball kills etc..

I think if I played up to 21 I might collapse,but i might enjoy it more...:coverlaugh:

do you not think a compromise of games upto 15 with 3 serves would have been better,the points equation would be almost the same as 21 up,eg best of 5 up to 15= best of 3 up to 21.

i know badminton and squash have changed there scoring several times in the last few years...
just a thought..:happy::fcb:

[DaveR]

The whole issue of the scoring system is under fire as, in my humbled opinion we need NOT have changed the ball and definitely not stopped glue, that was simply playing with statistics as most agree now the that the ITTF are apparently banning all glue in September now! Ridiculous as they did mention non VC glue was OK but now we move on and it seems glue will not in any shape or form be acceptable.

Getting to the scoring system ..........raise the net and leave the scoring system would have simply sorted a few things ....ill name them and knock me down if you feel the need.

1.............it would make the games or matches more of a spectacle......yes

2.............the media would be more on our side, given the rallies would be longer and more viewable.

3.............the younger players joining the sport would be less likely to leave if they were more likely to be involved in better and more interesting Table Tennis

[Kev]

Just a thought on the bigger ball. As I understand it making the ball bigger was supposed to make it move through the air slower and so would slow the game down and make rallies longer.

But the only way the ball ould move through the air slower would be if they made them the same weight as the smaller ball. But they couldn't do that as they would have to make the casing so thin the balls would break constantly. As a result the bigger ball is heavier and any slowing in friction in the air is offset by the increased weight.

I think the phrase 'not really thought through' is apt.

[HarryBelafonte]

:resent:can we get any statistics anywhere on all of these issues-any comparisions v the old ball..:happy:
Anyone think up to 15 would be better..

[Firepower]

Nice idea Harry i think it's worth looking into, gimme a few days i will see what i can come up with.

[Robstar]

Received TT catologue yesterday and lo and behold 0n page 38-39 are 4 rubbers that mayn't be approved from July this year for tournament play and they are not cheap. I think that an list should be attatched showing a list of these rubbers
I recall a Vett from Northumberland travelling to Bristol for a tournament to find a notice next to the draw Curl special not approved, he borrowed a bat lost and never entered a tournament again.
I have heard of other scenarios about rubbers due to the fact 2 manufactures went their own ways
No wonder our sport is very low profiled and we can;t compete with Snooker or darts Robstar

[Moggy]

Thanks for your replies....

I think the advent of speed glues and treated rubbers was bound to happen sooner or later, it's just the larger ball has made it happen sooner.
If the glues had come first, the ITTF might now be thinking of introducing the 40mm ball to try and slow everything down.

What are people's opinion on the use of fast rubbers and fast glues / tuners?

Do you only use them to keep up with others, or for another reason?

Would you prefer a (slightly) slower game where the point is only lost if you make a mistake?

[Mr Wilko]

i think changing the scoring to 11 does make it more interesting as anyone can win a game even against the top players because if you get a good start then before you know it the game is over and you have won.

i remeber playing Mr Fonte on 5 occasions, on 3 of them was 2-0 down after loosing 11-2 11-3 then winning match 3-2 on other 2 occasions was 2-0 up after winning roughly the same scores but then loosing 3-2 if this had of been up to 21 this would never of happened

this proving that you need to be switched on from the word go and have no time to mess round even if you are 7-1 or 6-1 up as previousley stated by Mr Fonte

:covereyes::covereyes::covereyes::covereyes::cover eyes:

[DaveR]

i think changing the scoring to 11 does make it more interesting as anyone can win a game even against the top players because if you get a good start then before you know it the game is over and you have won.

i remeber playing Mr Fonte on 5 occasions, on 3 of them was 2-0 down after loosing 11-2 11-3 then winning match 3-2 on other 2 occasions was 2-0 up after winning roughly the same scores but then loosing 3-2 if this had of been up to 21 this would never of happened

this proving that you need to be switched on from the word go and have no time to mess round even if you are 7-1 or 6-1 up as previousley stated by Mr Fonte

:covereyes::covereyes::covereyes::covereyes::cover eyes:


Agreed and yes deffinitely makes Table Tennis more interesting, especially when 2 - 0 down, which i usually am before being 3 - 0 down !

[Mr Wilko]

Agreed and yes deffinitely makes Table Tennis more interesting, especially when 2 - 0 down, which i usually am before being 3 - 0 down !



quality dave, but even at 2-0 down you still have a chance of winning,another instance was last year in Northumberland closed i was 2-0 down in final to Ed, and was getting more and more annoyed after every point (as you know he is the luckiest man in world) but managed to scrape the 3rd (after a lucky net at 10-9 up (very rare) and with ed getting old managed to scrape the 4th then took the 5th 11-4.

as i said before you need to be on the ball from 0-0 until you shake hands


:woho::woho::woho::woho::woho::woho::woho::woho::w oho::woho::woho::woho:

[HarryBelafonte]

:fcb:i think part of what moggy was saying and by your reply mr wellki you have pointed this out...:happy:

There is not room for mistakes ,or room to invent, make up shots ,have a little fun,etc..i know when i played cookie,up to 21 .(losing 5 and 6) he lobbed me off on many points,nice for him and the crowd watching at the time..

I dont think up to 11 he would mess about as much.like you say you have to be swiched on from the start,not to say up to 11 cant be fun, just less so..more intense..

:woho:

[DaveR]

quality dave, but even at 2-0 down you still have a chance of winning,another instance was last year in Northumberland closed i was 2-0 down in final to Ed, and was getting more and more annoyed after every point (as you know he is the luckiest man in world) but managed to scrape the 3rd (after a lucky net at 10-9 up (very rare) and with ed getting old managed to scrape the 4th then took the 5th 11-4.

as i said before you need to be on the ball from 0-0 until you shake hands


:woho::woho::woho::woho::woho::woho::woho::woho::w oho::woho::woho::woho:


very true and the smith was 2 -0 up against me the other night and lost loooooooooool

nets ! rare........................blimey

[Mr Wilko]

very true and the smith was 2 -0 up against me the other night and lost loooooooooool

nets ! rare........................blimey

was just about to quote that, and that was with you not playing too good apart from having a quality b/hand!!!! wey hey

i took brad to 5 a couple of years ago at sheffield was 2-1 up (up to 11).
playing up to 21 i think (know) he would of done the same as cooke did to bellafonte!!!!!!


:rocker::rocker::rocker::rocker::rocker:

[HarryBelafonte]

:fcb:all well and good,but what about comebacks...or losing from impossible positions?
I dont think this happens as much.

What i was saying,if you are 1-0 and 9-3 you more or less chuck that end as you know you can still win the next 3..

Somehow 19-13 down ,obviously the 5 serve makes a difference ,you still feel you had a chance to win.

i remember losing from 1-0 up ang 19-6 ------yes 19-6, was also 20-16 up in the 3rd,obviously this turnaround of 13 points wont happen now..

I am not defending the old scoring system,just stating a few points.
Dont mind 11,have been far more succesful under this scoring system,
plus we can get to pub earlier now...:popcorn:

:tomato:

[Mr Wilko]

plus we can get to pub earlier now...:popcorn:

:tomato:[/quote]


unless you play thompsons insurance!!!!!

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[King Slasher]

There are a couple of points i nedd to make here.

Firstly speed glue was around before the 40mm ball. I was introduced to speed glue by my cheshire junior team mate Billy Gleave in the 1980's.

Billy had tremendous success with his combination bat at all levels however after the banning of same coloured rubbers he tried his luck as an attacker using speed glue. Alas it was not to be.

At his time we used vulcanising glue from our local tyre repair shop!

On the issue of 21 up. I think all the points made here are valid however i do think that the glorious comebacks could happen between two international players of similar standard however in most league matches you could could get long drawn out boring matche where the outcome was obvious after the first five points.

The 11 up system has undoubtably changed the dynamics and skills necessary to win a game of table tennis.

It requires concentration from the first to last point.

It throws up the occassional shock win.

It introduces pressure to the better player that might not have been in existance under the 21 up system.

All in all I beleive cream will rise to the top in any situation and the best players will be able to adapt and the ones that cannot adapt with changes to the rules were not the best players as they were using the rules to their advantage. Alas it was not to be.:thtease:

[DaveR]

There are a couple of points i nedd to make here.

Firstly speed glue was around before the 40mm ball. I was introduced to speed glue by my cheshire junior team mate Billy Gleave in the 1980's.

Billy had tremendous success with his combination bat at all levels however after the banning of same coloured rubbers he tried his luck as an attacker using speed glue. Alas it was not to be.

At his time we used vulcanising glue from our local tyre repair shop!

On the issue of 21 up. I think all the points made here are valid however i do think that the glorious comebacks could happen between two international players of similar standard however in most league matches you could could get long drawn out boring matche where the outcome was obvious after the first five points.

The 11 up system has undoubtably changed the dynamics and skills necessary to win a game of table tennis.

It requires concentration from the first to last point.

It throws up the occassional shock win.

It introduces pressure to the better player that might not have been in existance under the 21 up system.

All in all I beleive cream will rise to the top in any situation and the best players will be able to adapt and the ones that cannot adapt with changes to the rules were not the best players as they were using the rules to their advantage. Alas it was not to be.:thtease:


i agree with KS on most of the points and the 11 up rule is deffinitely a far more exiting way to play table tennis and probably to watch, unfortunately the media will show the back end of an 11 up match as they did with the 21 up system so on the point on better media and match coverage they still leave out great points and key ends...........

[Moggy]

i agree with KS on most of the points and the 11 up rule is deffinitely a far more exiting way to play table tennis and probably to watch

Yes, I'd agree if you are watching, but not so enjoyable to play... and why do we play table tennis? surely not for the benefit of the on lookers (well just maybe when we can pull off a superduper shot:clap:).

unfortunately the media will show the back end of an 11 up match as they did with the 21 up system so on the point on better media and match coverage they still leave out great points and key ends...........

The media haven't quite got the hang of highlights from the TT games, reminds me of footy games where a shot just missing the goal resumes with play halfway down the touchline with a throw in.

[DaveR]

Yes, I'd agree if you are watching, but not so enjoyable to play... and why do we play table tennis? surely not for the benefit of the on lookers (well just maybe when we can pull off a superduper shot:clap:).



The media haven't quite got the hang of highlights from the TT games, reminds me of footy games where a shot just missing the goal resumes with play halfway down the touchline with a throw in.


on the point of enjoyment i would agree as the "journey" is sometimes the reason we play and enjoy the sport and not the outcome, having said that many have said they like the closer and more tense 11 up system because of the sometimes unpredictability when it becomes close and deuce. Very difficult to quantify which is the best as both have there plus and negative, sometimes the age of the player seems to determine the outcome of the question.

[Moggy]

All in all I believe cream will rise to the top in any situation and the best players will be able to adapt and the ones that cannot adapt with changes to the rules were not the best players as they were using the rules to their advantage. Alas it was not to be.:thtease:

Having lived with 11pts for a few years now, I see little benefit the new game has had for those playing at the grass roots level. It actually alienated lot of older players and forced some leagues away from the ETTA. Footy rules change depending on the age group playing - why can the same not be true for TT? - we are only playing 11pt because it was decided to do that at International level.

My main concern in my area is to get non players playing and if that means starting off playing 21pts or using blue bats (yes blue!) then I see no harm in that as long as people enjoy their game. Hopefully a percentage of these will become competitive enough to enter a team and join the league.

[Moggy]

Very difficult to quantify which is the best as both have there plus and negative, sometimes the age of the player seems to determine the outcome of the question.

I did say perhaps I was getting old :wink2: