Why is the Butterfly brand so expensive ?

[Leeston]

Hi All,
I need a lie down - Is it me or do you get a shock when looking at the prices of rubbers, in particular, Butterfly ? How is it possible that a rubber can cost over £30 ? & some over £35.

Is this good value for money ?

Clearly, the cost of development and manufacuting increases, etc over time - that's life, but then you look at the the other available products, the average price is more around the £20 to £25 mark.

So is it because its a Premier brand that is far better than the others or something else ? There's a thought that the butterfly brand offers a better quality compared to some chinese makes and I think there's probably some truth in this. But is this not reflected in the prices of other brands being around £15 - £20 ? Max of £25 generally.

So, does the brand justify another £10 - £15 which can equate to approximately another 50% to 75% in cost ?

It would be a very interesting to hear your thoughts ? Maybe this is the price of the game now or maybe it isn't ? What do you think ?

Lets not lose sight that our sport is very inexpensive - By at the end of the day, its only a very small piece of rubber with a sponge on the back of it.

So what do you think - the rantings of an old miser ( te he ) or do you agree there are some questions that should be raised ? If only to understand why ?

[NativeNewYorker]

I certainly get shocks from pricing in general from Table Tennis equipment including clothing, rubbers and the likes but im amazed how little they cost in China and places like that. I would probably think it would be the labour costs in places of lower standing and cost of living but even countries like france have or seem to have a better price level than we do. Table Tennis is very inexpensive in relation to a lot of sports but i do deffinitely take your points to be valid Leeston.

The rubber argument is strange because i personally dont have a the fogiest how these things are manufactured, be nice to see some footage on how these things are actually put together wether it be Butterfly or otherwise.

Butterfly i would say is the best equipment as in clothing and rubbers it would always be someones choice as to their particular playing type.

[Annie]

I've been trying to find out what grade of rubber is used to manufacture the different rubbers on Table Tennis Blades without much success.

What I can knowledgable tell you is that a block of EPDM 2M x 1M x 65MM costs around £54. OK Mr Wilko work out how many rubbers you can cut out of a block? Somebody is gaining a mint and it's not the players.

If anyone can find out for me exactly the grade of rubber used for this application I will endeavour to investigate it further.

Yes a businesses objective is to be profitable but some can take it too far. :redcard:

[Spinmaster]

So is it because its a Premier brand that is far better than the others or something else ? There's a thought that the butterfly brand offers a better quality compared to some chinese makes and I think there's probably some truth in this. But is this not reflected in the prices of other brands being around £15 - £20 ? Max of £25 generally.


Premier brand is hard to describe but yes i would say its the best around which is probably why its expensive or slightly more expensive, not sure on the "like for like" but what i do know is that some of the Chinese rubbers although cheaper are rubbish so i tend to use Butterfly. Clothing is everyones choice like music i suppose with whatever you feel suits you at your time in life. Butterfly is nice gear theres no doubting that but i got a few bbits and pieces of Stiga and Donic and nice too so choice again really.

Market force is normally the case, as with all things that are sold successfully they tend to be marketed at different levels.

I guess all in all try everything and use what you like !

Said form a man who goes out once a week with a son who eats all his money, scuba diving and surfing !

[HarryBelafonte]

what do we expect,we pay more for everything in britain,well england now,wales and scotland get loads of freebies...:covereyes:

[DaveR]

Prove it Mr Belafonte !

[HarryBelafonte]

well ,prescriptions in wales are free,we pay 7.10 for each one,cost me 25 pound for hayfever stuff, free student places in scotland.
Rubbers,and tt stuff go to web and youll see.presports,£11 for mark v30 degree
Berwick up here wants to go back to scottish rule,cheaper poll tax plus freebies,cant blame them..
house prices here,petrol,every where in europe diesal is same price as petrol not here 10p difference.

Im sure other members could help me out here,:bag:

Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Robstar]

i play in the ostend open and shriver is 25% cheaper than in england about 4 years ago i visited a sports shop in singapore and rubber was 50% cheaper i agree with harry and the belgium tourney is 7£ to enter 2 events by the way Mazonov won it i could name several other countries point proven Robstar

[JKC]

All rubbers are much cheaper from the net but until more people begin to source their own rubber in this way the companies over here can pretty much charge what they like. I expect Chinese rubbers will probably be right up there in terms of quality and performance before too long and then things will change quite quickly I expect with people finding out just how much they have been ripped off all these years.

[The Windmill]

Just been on presports.com.......Its so cheap......Yasaka MKV 30 degrees £11 a sheet. Definitely rip off britain, manufacturers just seem to charge what they think they can get away with. Its just not butterfly thats expensive...they all are. I must admit these days with most things I tend to browse the shops to see what i want, then search the net for the best price...its the only way...

[Mr Wilko]

i know its expensive but it has the best quality products!!!!!!

[Tinykin]

There is a high cost to doing business in England. From paying an English person to answer the phone, to transport and warehousing costs, and taxes etc. I'm sure if Mr Ransom/Jarvis/Thornton were to operate out of Asia using only a UK website, they could reduce prices considerably.
PS: Don't forget the sponsorship costs for individuals, tournaments etc.

[Leeston]

It would be interesting to hear where everyone sources thier equipment from to help identify the better providers ? Especially if they are overseas. Is Ebay a viable source ?

Mr Wilko - Be very interested to hear on what evidence you base your comment on ?

I only ask as branding is marketing or better knows as "spin". For example, a friend of mine bought a brand new Merc. - Great branding, etc - My friend was very pleased with their "executive" car - within 3 years, the gearbox needed re-building, the head gasket went and the windscreen cracked.

So "quality" can be based in marketing alone sometimes and is not supported by the customer experience. All very subjective of course, but gets you thinking.

[JKC]

My personal favourites are:-

For Chinese equipment www.eacheng.net/ (http://www.eacheng.net/) - Very cheap and reliable but stuff can take 4-5 weeks to arrive but usually 2-3.

For Euro/Jap equipment http://presports.com/ - Quite a bit cheaper than the UK. No reliability problems. Usually takes 10-14 days for delivery.

If I need stuff quicker I use http://www.dandoy-sports.com/ - More expensive than presports but still considerably less than UK suppliers. Stuff usually takes 4-6 days to arrive. I have had no reliability problems with Dandoy but have read of others having problems from other forums.

[Robstar]

4 years ago i bought a pair of butterfly shoes about £35 2 year ago bought a pair of dawei shoes £15 which in my opinion are much better as 4 somebodys stated companys in england have to pay 4 people to answer the phone etc is this not the case in other european countries which pay better wages I think it is dearer to play TT in england than most other european countries but it the same with other sports and hobby;s horse racing in belgium is relativly cheap and greyhound racing in america and australia is free entry

[Mr Wilko]

i get my evidence from using the equipment myself for the last 17 years after trying other equipment but ended up going back to butterfly where i eventually got my sponsor!!!!! hope this is enough evidence for you Leeston???

[JKC]

Never yet found a Butterfly rubber which suited my style (or managed to adapt my style to suit their rubbers). Had a couple of sheets of Bryce once and had split both within 3 weeks without touching the table so I moved on. Will give them another try if they ever come down below £7 per sheet.

[Mr Wilko]

so you wont be trying them again JKC!!!! lol

[JKC]

Highly unlikely.

[Assybish]

I have used this supplier several times for blades/rubbers etc and he has been excellent. His sponge cleaner is very good and helps answer the dusty rubber post in another thread just was down every few points and squegee off - job done!
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Ping-Pong-Sky

[MickM]

I use Butterfly and the quality up to now has been excellent for rubber and clothes so maybe it is the style or type that is sometimes the difference. The Butterfly range of clothing is second to none in my opinion but price will always be a problem in England, not because of the company but because operating costs are high in the UK.

[Leeston]

i get my evidence from using the equipment myself for the last 17 years after trying other equipment but ended up going back to butterfly where i eventually got my sponsor!!!!! hope this is enough evidence for you Leeston???


Hi Wilko,
Sounds like your very happy with the Butterfly products. Well done for getting sponsorship. Based on the feedback, I don't think there's much of an issue with the quality, its more about the price you have to pay for it. Is it worth an extra 50% - 75% ? Very much a personal decision and based on affordabilty.

Here's anther thought, how long do the rubbers last ? is there a difference and if so, why ? is this where you can get your return on the extra cost ?

[Mr Wilko]

equipment will always be expensive in England as is everything else Leeston.

as for life of a rubber it all depends how often you play and whether you glue or not.

[Belisar]

This is one of those relative things. Whilst I do not use a lot of Buttefly equipment myself I have to admit the quality has always been good (clothing or blade and rubber wise). If you like the gear then you'll pay for it. If not then hunt around - some decent sites it seems in this thread btw.

Price is a factor in general. I have seen table tennis sold as a cheap sport to play and whilst that may be true at a very basic level it is less so when you start getting into competitions. I spend a lot of time with juniors and entry fees, license fees, computer levy's as well as equipment adds up very fast even for those just starting on a few local tournaments.

[SammyBoy]

Hi Wilko,
Sounds like your very happy with the Butterfly products. Well done for getting sponsorship. Based on the feedback, I don't think there's much of an issue with the quality, its more about the price you have to pay for it. Is it worth an extra 50% - 75% ? Very much a personal decision and based on affordabilty.

Here's anther thought, how long do the rubbers last ? is there a difference and if so, why ? is this where you can get your return on the extra cost ?

Lets face it the rubbers will last a lot longer given the fact glue is reputed to be banned outright, but i suppose the rubber general life is less when we use softer sponges these days. The harder sponge will no doubt come into play more without glue as it probably will give the quickest results...we will se as they say.

[FantasyCheeseBasin]

Just been on presports.com.......Its so cheap......Yasaka MKV 30 degrees £11 a sheet. Definitely rip off britain, manufacturers just seem to charge what they think they can get away with. Its just not butterfly thats expensive...they all are. I must admit these days with most things I tend to browse the shops to see what i want, then search the net for the best price...its the only way...

spot on windybottom :dance3:

[Jose]

From surveys taken amongst the players competing in World Championships, the majority of players are of the opinion that Butterfly rubbers are the best, and for people who like winning, this is important. It is not unusual for the best to be the most expensive in any product line.

Butterfly have been the main equipment sponsors for table tennis throughout the UK for the last 30 years, having helped hundreds of youngsters who have represented their national teams, from Jill Hammersley and Desmond Douglas, through to Alan Cooke, Matthew Syed and Nicola Deaton and more recently Paul Drinkhall and Kelly Sibley, the current England No. 1 players. Both have played with Butterfly from a very early age.

In addition to supporting players, Butterfly have provided the equipment for the main events in the UK, including the World Championships, the European Championships, the Commonwealth Games, Commonwealth Championships, and the National Championships at both senior and junior levels, plus Grand Prix events, Vetts events, and now all the schools events.

The foreign internet companies have never done anything to financially help table tennis in Great Britain or any of the British players, and are unlikely to do so. As a matter of interest, check the price of Sriver on the Tees Sport and Dandoy sites. Dandoy: £17.60 excl. vat, £21.30 incl. vat plus £2.66 carriage, total £23.96. Tees Sport: £20.99 plus £1.95 carriage, total £22.94.

[JKC]

I am sure lots of good has come from sponsorship, but what about the local player who doesn't follow the game nationally (and there are many). They just care about how much their rubbers cost and might not like to think about x pence/pounds on every rubber they buy going to support sponsored players (or Ormesby players?).

[TS]

I am sure lots of good has come from sponsorship, but what about the local player who doesn't follow the game nationally (and there are many). They just care about how much their rubbers cost and might not like to think about x pence/pounds on every rubber they buy going to support sponsored players (or Ormesby players?).



When did Jose mention Ormesby players?

She didn't!

[JKC]

Are you saying that Ormesby players don't get their rubbers subsidised?

[Belisar]

They just care about how much their rubbers cost and might not like to think about x pence/pounds on every rubber they buy going to support sponsored players (or Ormesby players?).

I don't think it works quite as simply as that.

Every supplier has players they sponsor either as individuals or through clubs. This could be as simple as charging cost price only. Or it could be in the form of full sponorship in which the cost of the rubber is written off. It is often a good form of advertising for the suppliers (I will not even have a stab at the tax accounting involved).

I appreciate that the suppliers need to make their profit and clearly the more they provide equipment at below cost price the more they need to make up elsewhere. But I am not sure you can put a price on it per rubber or per shirt for everyone else. I would imagine the turnover for someone like Tees Sport is so many multiples of the cost of their sponsorship that the impact on cost for everyone else is pretty much nothing.

The bigger question is whether players feel they get value for money. The thread suggests Butterfly is expensive, I am not sure it is compared to other UK based suppliers (perhaps not cheaper but not more expensive either). There seems to be a number of people who like the brand and the qualiy and I guess for them it makes the price one worth paying.

[Assybish]

As an ex director of a major multi-national I can confirm it is "rip off Britai".
Our prices in the UK were higher than any other country in the world despite at that time our salaries being way below France, Germany, Denmark, USA etc.
Why? - because we could get away with it. this was true for many competitors in allied fields too. We were in polymers, plastics adhesives coatings sealants paints etc.

Butterfly seems particularly over priced as Yasaka are at least as good depending on your preferences and somewhat cheaper.

[NativeNewYorker]

Market force is the key, which is why Manchester United can sell things higher priced in the footy market. Butterfly is the best equipment and can do the same basically but as you say i agree Yasaka is ok too just choice at the end of the day.

[HarryBelafonte]

:taz:but why dearer in this country ? were turning in to a nation of del boys and the sheriff of nottingham.thats just the government and the banks...
feel like a bunch of peasants up here....:redcard:

[Tinykin]

I think Bty is a bit like Porsche. Porsche is the most profitable car company in the world as they are able to charge prices on each car that no other car company would get away with. This is because of the reputation for quality etc that they have built up over the years. Same with Bty.
Bty prices are not that different in the UK when you add VAT and carriage.
As to the pre-sports and other internet suppliers outside the EU, I have a feeling that they can get way with those prices as UK customers don't pay import duties. As soon as revenue and customs take an interest we would see landed prices go up.

[HarryBelafonte]

are porches dearer in this country than abroad.,ill wager a sixpence they are...:thtease:

[Mr Wilko]

why dont you put your porche on that one Harry!!! lol

[HarryBelafonte]

or your fiat he he he he,,,,

[Mr Wilko]

puegeot 206 to be exact Harry we dont all make as much ££££££ as you !!!! lol

[HarryBelafonte]

you do you just like to hang on to it.....:rocker:

[Mr Wilko]

hey i wish the Mrs must hide it in our porsche i mean peugeot cos i have not seen any of it!! ha ha

[HarryBelafonte]

most of mine goes on subsidising the teams i play in ,,ie eddy and thorpster...:taz:

[Mr Wilko]

should sign for thompsons!!!! ha ha

[HarryBelafonte]

already play for him..:thumbsup:

[Robstar]

harry likes supporting lost causes he should have been a social worker but i tell you what his dad got brilliant patter he actually played for sunderland in the late 50s he looks like Daves younger brother sound guy

[HarryBelafonte]

aye always shout for the underdog,where did harry come into this?:fcb:

[Sparky]

spot on windybottom :dance3:
I agree wholeheartedly about rip-off britain, my own experience of buying online is the unexpected addition of import tax and a charge made by royal mail totaling £16, which made a big hole in the savings I thought I was making:taz:

[Robstar]

actually bought some butterfly rubber in ostend and it was actually £12 cheaper than in catalogues in GB and remember the Euro is at a all time low The tournaments not including european vetts are also a lot cheaper on the continent they seem to have better sponsership infact the cost of travel 3 days in a 3 star hotel entrance fee was 50£ less than the last time i played at thornbury national vetts

[Mr Wilko]

evrything is cheaper abroad Robstar!!!!!! ha ha ha

[Pingmaster]

rip of britan! that the problem

I buy my gear from Presport. I've found very reliable and cheap. How can anyone justify paying £26.00 for sheet of sriver when you can get it at presport for £11.00 sounds like a no brainer to me.

[Werewolf]

Hi Pingmaster
How do you get to their site

[Pingmaster]

Hi Werewolf - here you go
pre sports.com

[Werewolf]

Hi Pingmaster
Thanks for this. Do you get hit with import taxes the site is very unclear

[Pingmaster]

No taxes - the only xtra cost is postage. it is also best to pay by paypal

[JKC]

I have used Presports too and been very happy with their service. I get chinese rubbers and stuff from eacheng.net and have had loads of stuff from them without problems.

[DaveR]

Just some clarification on the "links" posted to relevant suppliers for example any goods to be sold etc. We have no objection to members giving advise and any support to any other member in relation to the equipment variations as there are so many, the only stipulation we have is the direct linking to the site concerned in posts or otherwise due to sponsorship and other areas Table Tennis Talk is involved in (advertising policy (http://www.tabletennistalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?pageid=acceptable)) at the time. By all means discuss all avenues of equipment in areas as this valued by all members concerned. The promotion of the sport Globally is the most important factor so we encourage all areas to be debated and discussed with any advise always welcome, there is also the PM system whereby if you would like to give another member a deffinite link to a site this can be done via that system.

Lets clear some things up here with buying online in relation to companies or indeed any other involving goods either sporting or otherwise. The reason i have highlighted this is simply because it is sometimes "carefully" left out of purchase transaction literature.

Shopping on the Internet

Buying goods on the Internet is an increasingly popular way of shopping.
We hope the following will provide you with basic information about various charges, such as Customs duty, that may apply to goods you buy. You can also have a look at our Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) (http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_PROD1_028719&propertyType=document).


Before buying goods on the Internet, you need to be aware that whilst you may think you have found a real bargain and have paid fully for the goods:

Some websites may not make it clear that in addition to the total price you pay, you may also have to pay Customs duty, Excise duty and/or import VAT.
Other websites may advertise that they will misrepresent or undervalue your goods so you avoid paying any extra Customs charges. However, by law you are the importer of the goods and are legally responsible for the information on the Customs declaration made by the sender and for any charges due. If you buy goods and the declaration is found to be incorrect, you may be liable to financial penalties or prosecution. In addition, the goods may be seized. It is in your interest to ensure the sender completes the Customs declaration accurately.
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What Customs charges do I have to pay and when?



Below is a basic summary of what additional costs you may pay according to:

the type of goods you buy
where they are purchased from
If you buy goods online from within the European Union (EU)

You will not be charged Customs duty or import VAT.
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Excise duty for some goods like alcohol and tobacco
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Customs duty will not be charged
Import VAT is charged if the value of the goods is €22 (£18)* and over
Excise duty is charged for some goods, eg alcohol and tobacco
The EU 'Special Territories' are The Ǻland Islands (Finland), The Canary Islands (Spain), The Channel Islands (UK), The French Overseas Departments of Guadeloupe, French Guiana, Martinique and Reunion and Mount Athos also known as Agion Poros (Greece).
If you buy goods online from Jersey or Guernsey


Customs duty will not be charged.
Import VAT is charged if the value of the goods is €22 (£18)* and over.
Many Channel Islands companies are part of a ‘VAT pre-payment’ scheme. This means you will be asked to pay import VAT if the value of the goods is over €22 (£18)* at the time you pay for the goods. In this case you will not have to pay any additional costs when you receive your goods.
Excise duty will be charged for some goods, eg alcohol and tobacco.
Where can I get more information?

Detailed information can be found in Notice 143 A guide for international post users. (http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000014&propertyType=document)
You can also call the HM Revenue & Customs National Advice Service for more information on Tel 0845 010 9000.
* The sterling value shown will be subject to an annual review, and may be adjusted, as a result of the euro exchange rate announced in the European Commission Official Journal on the first working day in October to take effect from 1 January.

$START-DATA$ title=Shopping on the Internet^ summary=Details of duties and taxes payable on goods that are bought over the internet and imported into the UK.^ doctype=InformationSheet^ date=12-Aug-2008^ author=MG6030886^ $END-DATA$

[Spinmaster]

I have bought various things off net and generally happy but have had a problem in final charges incurred when recieving invoice and goods by certain companies so i agree it is worth watching closely at all times on any net purchase.