Forehand Topspin - Stance change

[Leeston]

Hi Peeps !
Would be interested to hear your thoughts on this. In my day ( some time ago now ) the forehand topspin was taught with a 1/4 turn so that the player could transfer their weight forwards, behind the ball.

I've noticed now that a square stance is creaping into the game and can only assume this is as a result of glue. Whilst, there's no "perfect" way, I'd be interested on your thoughts and reasonings behind the change in stance and the benefits / disadvantages ?

:thumbsup:

[Ping Pong Andy]

is it not due to the fact that the speed of the game has increased and a more square stance allows players to move around the table a lot quicker, particularly from side to side, than it would if they took a more side on approach. your point about the speed glue may be valid though because players can do more with less these days, i.e more speed and spin with a shorter stroke or lack of weight tranference.

[Mr Wilko]

there is a reason for this as me and TS found out while doing our 3* coaching badge will check through the books and let you know why this has changed.

[TS]

If you remember Mr Wilko, the reason for this is so that you always finish your shot square on to the line of play, hence being in the correct position if the ball is returned. This is fine to teach beginners, but very difficult for players who have already been playing for atleast 2 years.

Mr Wilko.......Do you remember how hard we found it to change?.....it was impossible.

[NativeNewYorker]

The words Leopard and spots springs to mind as many players who have played for so many years will never be able to change. I have seen the same Lesston and yes glue is the instant answer with lazy becoming the way forward for example a square stance will mean you will put less effort so the laziness creeps in where as a more diagonal satance will mean the generation of power coming through with a bigger stroke and will probably work better without glue.

[Mr Wilko]

If you remember Mr Wilko, the reason for this is so that you always finish your shot square on to the line of play, hence being in the correct position if the ball is returned. This is fine to teach beginners, but very difficult for players who have already been playing for atleast 2 years.

Mr Wilko.......Do you remember how hard we found it to change?.....it was impossible.

yeah it was very difficult we looked like beginners at first!!!!!

also TS can you remember how long it took us to get there????? LOL :tomato:

[TS]

That long road that went on forever?

[Leeston]

Hi Peeps,
During a coaching session, it was highlighted to me that the new stance should be roughly square with a twist from the waist. I understand this change with speed glue, etc, but being from the "old school" I prefer to coach the quarter turn version first to enable the player to understand the benefit of transfering their weight, playing over the table and driving the ball forward. It also enables them to understand how the stance should change when dealing with a chopped ball which the new stance does not cover.

My biggest worry is that with beginers, they would end up going sideways across the face and they would retain an static stance. I want them to understand the impact of the stance & stroke first.

So my question is, is my approach reasonable in teaching the quarter turn first, then follow up with the square stance later as a more advanced shot or do I go strainght to the square stance and hope they never have to loop a chopped ball ?

I'd be insterested in your thoughts ?

[Annie]

Hi Peeps,
During a coaching session, it was highlighted to me that the new stance should be roughly square with a twist from the waist. I understand this change with speed glue, etc, but being from the "old school" I prefer to coach the quarter turn version first to enable the player to understand the benefit of transfering their weight, playing over the table and driving the ball forward. It also enables them to understand how the stance should change when dealing with a chopped ball which the new stance does not cover.

My biggest worry is that with beginers, they would end up going sideways across the face and they would retain an static stance. I want them to understand the impact of the stance & stroke first.

So my question is, is my approach reasonable in teaching the quarter turn first, then follow up with the square stance later as a more advanced shot or do I go strainght to the square stance and hope they never have to loop a chopped ball ?

I'd be insterested in your thoughts ?

Leeston coach me. I'm on my 5th week and have so far done the forehand push, backhand push and the forehand spin. All these moves are so far with balls given to me on a plate. I appreciate I have more strokes to learn and to learn how to return such stokes.

If it's not too much bother give me your opinion HERE (http://www.tabletennistalk.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=893) and I will try my best and give you feed back on how effective your instruction has been for me if it helps? I may just be untrainable! :resent:

[JKC]

Coaching someone you haven't seen is quite difficult I would imagine, where do you start other than saying "there is the coaching manual, read that". Once you have seen someone then you can start getting ideas on ways to improve their game. Maybe you should provide us with a short vid Annie.

[Annie]

Sorry never thought of that. :bag:

[Belisar]

Hi Peeps,
During a coaching session, it was highlighted to me that the new stance should be roughly square with a twist from the waist. I understand this change with speed glue, etc, but being from the "old school" I prefer to coach the quarter turn version first

By quarter turn do you mean that the feet are not square but the right foot (for a right hander) is behind the left ?

Or is your quarter turn the turn from the waist that rotates the upper body a quarter of the way around ?

If the former then I would say a squarer stance is better (not completely square) as if the right foot is too far back it makes a backhand very difficult without switching the feet around. The game is too fast (even without glue) for players to be moving feet too much (side to side or in and out is enough). Also starting with one stance and then changing as players improve seems to me to be making life difficult for the player. As others have testified, once a technique has been developed it is not easy to change it.

I coach a stance to be feet together, slide right foot (for right hander) back so your toe is halfway up the left foot and then step out to the balanced position. Not completely square so you can still rotate the body and have some transfer of weight, but square enough to allow for a backhand to be played without dancing to much.

Hope that makes sense.

[Leeston]

By quarter turn do you mean that the feet are not square but the right foot (for a right hander) is behind the left ?

Or is your quarter turn the turn from the waist that rotates the upper body a quarter of the way around ?

If the former then I would say a squarer stance is better (not completely square) as if the right foot is too far back it makes a backhand very difficult without switching the feet around. The game is too fast (even without glue) for players to be moving feet too much (side to side or in and out is enough). Also starting with one stance and then changing as players improve seems to me to be making life difficult for the player. As others have testified, once a technique has been developed it is not easy to change it.

I coach a stance to be feet together, slide right foot (for right hander) back so your toe is halfway up the left foot and then step out to the balanced position. Not completely square so you can still rotate the body and have some transfer of weight, but square enough to allow for a backhand to be played without dancing to much.

Hope that makes sense.

Hi,
By quarter turn, I refer to the stance / feet position. I guess you can call it the old school style. My point is that, if we are now being encouraged to teach the feet with a square stance, taking into account the learning curve, how do you then teach them the concept of a quarter turn to deal with heavy chop - doing it with a sqauare stance, which becomes their natural stance, will create a real contradiction in the mind of the pupil.

Of course, to teach both gives the pupil the best of both worlds but, the average pupil will not be able to master both until a great deal more experienced.

Does this make sense ?

Regards

Lee :-)

[JKC]

Hypothetically speaking, which stance would you suggest a 5 year old used? (bare in mind he has never used glue.)

[Leeston]

Leeston coach me. I'm on my 5th week and have so far done the forehand push, backhand push and the forehand spin. All these moves are so far with balls given to me on a plate. I appreciate I have more strokes to learn and to learn how to return such stokes.

If it's not too much bother give me your opinion HERE (http://www.tabletennistalk.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=893) and I will try my best and give you feed back on how effective your instruction has been for me if it helps? I may just be untrainable! :resent:

Hi Annie,
They only guidance I can give you is to take your time and learn to CONTROL the ball. When pushing, don't get into the habit of pushing it too long - keep it short, otherwise you are training yourself to help the opponent.

Forehand / backhand topspin comes next - make sure that you play the ball nice and early, producing 2/3rd's of the stroke before you hit the ball. Re the forehand, keep checking your stance and length of stroke. Re your backhand, keep checking your elbow to make sure it stays out and forward so that the stroke can pivot from your elbow.

I would then encourage you to learn chop next - Yes, that's right, CHOP. If you are taught ALL the strokes then you have a wider choice on the table rather than being moulded into another "drone" topspin player.

Ok - So you have mastered push, topspin and chop..........now its a case of building up a mixture of routings to simulate a match situation.

Next is SERVICE - and please dont not underestimate the need to practice this. It takes time to "learn the way's of the force" and its worth it !

The more advanced shots come next.........but that's another story.

[Annie]

This is all great advice. Can we start on the push? For my hight 5'4 1/2" I have quite long arms (my Grandfather was 6'2" so I have big bones). I find I am beginning to push the ball quite forcibly and have been aiming for the end of the table. Is this wrong then? should I be dropping my balls short?

[Belisar]

Interesting issues.

The stance I try to use is not completely square but is pretty close to it. I would personally use this with all beginners until I feel they have a good grasp of the four basic shots plus a good idea of loops. I think the position is good for an all round game, can handle the speed and avoids players trying too do much too soon.

At this point it may mean that in matches they cannot handle heavy chop but to be fair anyone using that against them is a better player (either through ability or because of the technique they are using).

I would not have an issue explaining that someone lost a game to an opponent skilled enough to keep the ball on the table using heavy backspin. I would like my player to make a fight of it and try a few things out (push back, be patient, move the ball around etc) for me it is all part of the learning curve.

Once we move beyond the basics and start to develop other strokes then I would also start to spend more time on other parts of the game. Those other parts would involve altering the feet postion to suit different shots or different outcomes as well as different timing points. Hopefully at that point there understanding of the game has risen and they can then appreciate the variety a lot more.

If beginning at 5 or 75 I think the most important things are keeping it simple, find a settled body position (that means they can play the basic shots) and get them to understand the concept of control and technique in terms of striking the ball.

Blimey it's Friday evening and you got me thinking. Off to rest my brain now.

[Annie]

Blimey it's Friday evening and you got me thinking. Off to rest my brain now.

Your wiseness is very much appreciated :thumbsup:

So what I am getting is concentrate at an early stage on feet and ball control? Master that then move on to other techniques, correct?

[Belisar]

Stance covers the body in general (feet, knees slightly bent, head and body forwards).

Technique of whatever shot you want to play.

Control, not trying to hit the ball too hard but to get the ball on and relax. Trying to hit too hard too soon often messes up the technique, means you miss the table and then get frustrated.

As your technique improves and you get more consistent you can try to get a little bit more speed into your shots.

[Annie]

means you miss the table and then get frustrated.


Arrrgggghhhh! Is that what it is? :hysteric:

Thanks for great advice.

I appreciate I am asking simple questions but there may be others out there that are even more shy to ask.

Thanks for all the help everyone.

[Mr Wilko]

these days Annie the best advice is to master the forehand and backhand drive and loop then move onto the push.

when i coached i only ever spent about 10 minutes on pushing as it is to negative a stroke and should only really be used if no other option. :rocker::rocker:

[Annie]

Cheers Wilko I'm writting this all down! :thumbsup:

[Belisar]

these days Annie the best advice is to master the forehand and backhand drive and loop then move onto the push.

when i coached i only ever spent about 10 minutes on pushing as it is to negative a stroke and should only really be used if no other option. :rocker::rocker:

Small difference for me as I do the push before the loop. It is an easier shot and also seems to flow better from a continuity perspective (a loop follows a push in a rally kind of thing).

Not sure I exactly agree on the negative stroke thing - you can push agressively. But to be fair I guess it all depends on the individual.

ETTA used to say do the backhand push first - last course I did they accepted that this may not be right - anyone been a course recently ?

[JKC]

There is a difference depending on which side we are talking about. The backhand push is easier to learn than the backhand topspin, but the forehand topspin is easier to learn than the forehand push.

[Mr Wilko]

how many top players push first ball ???????????

plus if you coach the push ball first to kids that is always the stroke they will return to when under pressure or when it is close, it is like they say in football the best form of defence is to attack (unless you are a defender of course)

[Belisar]

how many top players push first ball ???????????

plus if you coach the push ball first to kids that is always the stroke they will return to when under pressure or when it is close, it is like they say in football the best form of defence is to attack (unless you are a defender of course)

Not saying I teach them to push first (drive first) or even advise them to do it at all. Tbh I do not even work on forehand push as I think there are better alternatives and the players often pick this up as they go along.

I agree with everything you say actually.

I do think the backhand push is a useful tool as it introduces players to backspin, how it works, what to look for and its effects. Once they know this (and it does not take long) then we look at countering it and the loop is one option.