Foul Serving

[Werewolf]

I have started taking my kids to tournaments this year and have been amazed at the amount of serves that are hidden behind the body. Players now seem to only ensure that the arm is removed and does not hide the ball, but the body seems to be used to shield the ball constantly especially on the reverse pendulum serve. I practiced with a lad from Pudsey ttc who I could see was foul serving. To see him strike the ball I had to move 3 feet to the left of the table. Are coaches and umpires just ignoring this now and only teaching them to get the arm out of the way and has anyone seen a fault called because of shielding the serve with the body. I taught my children to serve so that the ball can be seen at all times, this seems to have been wrong and put them at a disadvantage.
Please let me know your thoughts.:redcard:

[Desmond]

When i started playing table tennis, there was certainly nothing wrong with hiding the service. To me, it is a form of art. I'm quite puzzled as to why it is banned now. Anyway since it is against the rules, i guess we just have to accept it. Always teach the right values to your child even if everyone is doing otherwise. Cheers to you! :rocker:

[Belisar]

Saw a player at two different events recently hiding their serve behind their body. In one event the opponent stopped and questioned it. Eventually the umpire was replaced and the serve was called foul.

A couple of weeks later a different opponent did the same but was told by the umpire to get on with it, as far as he was concerned it was not a foul even though the ball was clearly being thrown back into the body and was hidden on contact.

Consistency sadly is lacking and I suspect some umpires just want a quiet time.

[Moggy]

As most players umpire at some point (at least in the local leagues) it is as an umpire that I have most problems with this type of foul serve.
As a receiving player the serve is usually in full view - so no problem. However, a serve must be in full view of the umpire AS WELL, to be legal.
There is no requirement for the umpire to move - It is the responsibility of the player to serve so that the umpire can see that the service is legal.

[TableTennisBill]

This foul serving happens a lot outside the top divisions. The umpires rarely call "a foul". They try to avoid the aggro that might come along with it, as some members have been around some time and know their opponents quite well.

[DaveR]

Bill i go around many top and local tournaments and believe me this happens at various levels with umpires usually turning a blind eye to to the serving law........especially at local level.

[Boneman]

LOL... I would be happy if the crew I play with were to toss the ball up off a flat palm. That's OK... They're learning.

As to hiding the service from your opponent... As to legality... I'll defer to others... as to fairness and sportsman like behaviour.... It's just wrong.

[DaveR]

There are some playing on the circuit who throw the ball "down" 6 inches !

[Belisar]

One thing that does need to improve from National Governing Bodies is communication. From what I have seen most players and most leagues do not know quite what constitutes a legal serve.

[DaveR]

Its the same old thing, at local level you can pretty much do as you feel ........unless your a top player in your particular area etc you then become satan if you dont do everything as it should be even though the others are not !

Everyone should be reading from the same script.

[Mr Wilko]

There are some playing on the circuit who throw the ball "down" 6 inches !


you got any names there DaveR i think i can think of only one???? LOL

when being coached at England cadet/junior training camps we were TAUGHT how to FOUL serve and told if you can get away with it then do it?????

:redcard::redcard::redcard:

[Annie]

you got any names there DaveR i think i can think of only one???? LOL

when being coached at England cadet/junior training camps we were TAUGHT how to FOUL serve and told if you can get away with it then do it?????

:redcard::redcard::redcard:

That's shocking! :redcard::redcard::redcard:

[Mr Wilko]

yep but true, and it was by an ex England international (senior player)

[Annie]

yep but true, and it was by an ex England international (senior player)

:Ahhh:


....

[Assybish]

As someone who hasn't played competitively for some 25 years I returned this year to league play.
I an appalled by the fact that even in the Potteries premier league the majority of players are foul serving. The main problems are not throwing the ball up at all let alone 16 cm, using a closed hand and serving from in front of the end line. The players are getting an advantage because the opponent has little time to see the ball before it is on its way
.
I called a player over yesterday and quietly explained that his serve was illegal and I would give a warning next time and then deduct a point each subsequent time and he went spare! It seems that nowadays every one is too afraid of confrontation to challenge the cheats but if someone played out of turn in doubles what would you do? It's the same thing both actions are illegal but the fouls serve seems accepted.
I am a profesional tennis coach of the highest LTA certification and have exactly the same problem with the footfault rule in serving.
I played a final a while back where my opponent was over 14 inches into court when he hit the serve. I complained to the umpire who " had a word" but it continued and the umpire refused to call a fault ( I still won the final).
This is happening all the time and the usual response is well it doesn't really matter. Cobblers if a 6ft tall bloke walks into court the serve advantage is massive. I usually say "do you call balls in that are out or vice versa" and the response is no that would be cheating! I say then that so is foul serving!!!!!!!!!!

The only answer is to call players every time and damn the consequences and if they get too stroppy report them to the ETTA or LTA to get them banned!
Trouble is both governing bodies are pathetic.

[Hovis Bread Eater]

Does the rule state that the player has to see the ball at all times. In the imaginary triangle where the ball is visible at all times. Trouble is with left and right handers and stance on the table for receving serves. What the umpire sees as a good serve (because they can see the ball from their seated position) to the player who can see the ball when it leaves the hand but because the ball has been thrown backwards the contact point is hidden by the players body or shoulder that at point of contact is not visible.

Makes decision making from the umpire very difficult.

I'm sure the rule was that the contact point of the ball had to be in front of the body not at the side of the body. so the servers front of bosy is parrall to the table. NOT SIDE ON.

I think Samsonov high toss serve is the perfect example of a good serve. no arm or body obstructing the contact point.

[JKC]

I recently looked at my serve in slow-mo after years of thinking it was legal. I found that I toss the ball from a position slightly above the table and also that I am sometimes a little slow pulling my free arm back so that it is occasionally in front of the ball when contact is made. Neither of which is intentional but the second of these infringements could give me a small advantage.
It is always worth analysing our own serves closely before we start pointing the finger at others.

[Robstar]

total agree andy i know at least1 top class coach who teaches his juniors 2 foul serve his interprutation is if the umpire does not call foull serve then it is NOT he also shows them to serve legal incase they face a strong umpire
as 4 local league there r deliberate foul servers and they know it there motto is cheat is better than defeat sad --------

[Boneman]

That is truly sad... If I were to play in such a manner I would feel more that I cheated my SELF. To win by ill means is not a win at all. Unfortunately, methinks this may be in no small part a societal issue as I see this sort of thing is profligate throughout many realms... not just this one.

"Doesn't anybody give a $#!+ about the rules anymore!?!?!" - Walter Sobchak (As portrayed by John Goodman in "The Big Lebowski")

[Michael Hahn]

In a recent band 4 event at a grand prix in a late round with a proper umpire a player was annoying me all game with a blatently obvious illegal serve that was thrown at abowt a 45 degree angle behind his back.
At 9-9 in the fifth after a particularly obvious serve i caught the ball and told the umpire it was illegal he said he didn't think it was and gave my opponent the point (i won in the end). After that my coach told me that i should have done it on the first point otherwise it looks like i am just doing it to get a cheap point

[Moggy]

Whilst not playing at the level some of you are, if I consider a player is foul serving against me consistantly without being picked up by the umpire, I will raise my hand as though to indicate a let and state that I can't see the whole flight of the ball. It usually makes the player and umpire aware (and not suprising puts a few players off their stroke - not that I'd do it for that reason:covereyes:). Other times I will just let it go if I LIKE the serve!

[MK Chris]

I think from a local league point of view, you're hard pushed to find someone who doesn't foul serve... not necessarily intentionally (though it clearly is in some cases); the only difference is the degree to which people foul serve. I sometimes hold the ball in my fingers rather than the palm of my hand.. I don't believe I gain any advantage from this and if I think about it at the time, I always move it to the palm of my hand.

The higher players (plus a few in the lower leagues like myself) seem to understand this, but a lot of lower league players do pull people up for it and if you do it for one you have to do it for everyone. I do tend to complain about one person and one person only, who doesn't throw the ball up at all and you have no idea where it's going... come to that, I don't think he has any idea where it's going.

[Mr Wilko]

DaveR are you still trying to think of that person who throws the ball down 6" instead of up??????????????

i might give you a clue soon if you are struggling??? LOL

[Highside]

saw this article on the ETTA site but who umpires or checks the umpires?
http://www.sportfocus.com/newsimage/umpires.jpg


Over the weekend of 5-6th July the Association of English Table Tennis Umpires (AETTU) organised a weekend of table tennis for its members at the Grimsby Table Tennis Centre. So rather than umpiring at tournaments the umpires enjoyed a weekend of table tennis and tested the “bragging” factor from their colleagues. The tournament consisted of age band events, doubles, an open event and a plate event. The youngest player was 44yrs of age and the oldest was 79yrs.


At the end of the tournament there were many tired and aching bodies. A few umpires had been warned about swearing. A few had been asked to throw the ball higher but no yellow cards were issued (mainly because they had been forgotten). Overall everyone enjoyed their table tennis and plans are already in place to hold a similar event next year.

Results:

Over 40
Ray Jackson (Lancs) bt. Steve Welch (Lincs)
Over 50
John Lawton (Cleveland) bt. Ray Jackson (Lancs)
Over 60
John Lawton (Cleveland) bt. Lynda Reid (Worcestershire)
Over 70
Stan Clarke (Lancs) bt. Geoff Taylor (Warwickshire)
Open Singles
John Lawton (Cleveland) bt. Ray Jackson (Lancs)
Open Plate
Bill Moran (Lincs) bt. John Mackey (Lincs)
Doubles
Jackson/Mackey bt. Sutcliffe/Edwards

[Moggy]

Several of them look like they used to playing while leaning on the table with their spare hand/arm:tomato:

[Noobarmy]

a lot of people seem to foul serve. its mainly teh younger kids. mind, all the coaches teach them the service rules: hand open, above and behind the white end line, throw the ball up and not to block the ball. noone enforces it however, once the coach is gone they just do whatever they want.

at the cadet league this season a lot of players would grasp the ball, hand closed and throw it from under the table and impart spin on the ball when throwing it up. often they were weak players so i didn't mind, until you get wild spin coming off your rubber and i'd flag it up. if the umpire was from my club they knew it was correct and that i wouldn't cheat to win a point. one guy from another club however told me to stop making up rules and to get on with it. i flagged it up with the torunament organiser (also from the same club) and he told me no rule existed. i then refused to play and he disqualified me from the match. i don't regret it i didn't see the point of playing a bad match.

the problem was that the club wasn't an adult club, they only run under 18 training sessions. and don't participate in the adult leagues so they dont have the full rule handbook like all the coaches at my club for example use and cite from A LOT. i've no idea if he's any good a player but he certainly isn't familiar with the rules. i now have to carry around a handbook just to teach a few people a lesson.

if the coach doesn't teach properly, and the complaint system at tournaments doesn't work...then i guess we have to live with playing with cheaters :(

[DaveR]

Rules are rules and need to be adhered to.............the same scenarios will and do happen in most leagues.......prime example although glue will be banned im betting there will be still cheaters using rubber that will be on the list of non approved by the ITTF but the answer will be oh we only play local !

Rules are rules play by them !

[Belisar]

a lot of people seem to foul serve. its mainly teh younger kids.

Part of the problem with the service rule is that most non-umpires don't actually know what it is and how it is meant to work.

Another part is it is not enforced properly or consistently by umpires - I saw one match at the Essex 4* (junior) where one players serve was a bit of a joke but the umpire (offical one) did not call it even when the opponent complained. So the player kept doing it and gained a massive advantage.

At a more local level peeps are reluctant to call foul serves as it causes bad feeling.

[Assybish]

I have just been warned by the secretary of our premier league for calling foul serves whilst umpiring and also questioning serves when playing.
He is a qualified ETTA coach and says "rules are guidelines and not rigid - stop calling fouls serves or you will get a name and become very unpopular and may find entry to the league difficult - most of these players have been serving this way for 30 years and can't change now!"
So I either have to put up and shut up or leave the strongest league in the area!
So whither now fairness?

[Belisar]

Also had an interesting one where the opposition called one of my team for a foul serve but then objected when a team mate called their player.

The reason - we admit that it is technically a foul but your players serve is worse.

As Assybish indicates, at local level the question of foul serves is a nightmare. If you call it then you seem to be the one in the wrong. I can understand the league official giving some friendly advise but I am not sure they should be telling you not to call them.

[HarryBelafonte]

Hmmm,this is a massive debate within table tennis,always has been and prob always will be.
Remember guo being faulted in 77 worlds,in the final after playing for 12 days without a fault. he probably had the most legal serve ever.:redcard:

also suss being faulted in world doubles final in china,after giving the chinese a big scare ,were the chinese scared of defeat,it done enough to put the germans off.:rocker:

anyway local league,I think in local league even in top division at least 50% people foul serve in some way shape or form...but are they gaining an advantage,most of them prob not,they dont even know they are foul serving.:fcb:

If on the other hand you can see a player deliberately hiding the ball
or prob the worst one playing the ball immediately off the hand,especiallly when your not ready,well you sometimes have to question these players..
:happy:
remember playing in semi of vets at newcastle,playing rubbish,was 2-0 down to a certain player,managed to lob my way back into match .got to 2-2 and 10-9 down in fifth,still playing poorly,as I had crouched down to recieve serve the ball flew past me :thtease:wide to the forehand,I turned to speak to my opponent but he was in my face,:tomato:grabbed my hand shook it and ran off. After I had calmed down I could see the funny side.
but it took a while..:thumbsup:

[Mr Wilko]

saw this article on the ETTA site but who umpires or checks the umpires?
http://www.sportfocus.com/newsimage/umpires.jpg


Over the weekend of 5-6th July the Association of English Table Tennis Umpires (AETTU) organised a weekend of table tennis for its members at the Grimsby Table Tennis Centre. So rather than umpiring at tournaments the umpires enjoyed a weekend of table tennis and tested the “bragging” factor from their colleagues. The tournament consisted of age band events, doubles, an open event and a plate event. The youngest player was 44yrs of age and the oldest was 79yrs.


At the end of the tournament there were many tired and aching bodies. A few umpires had been warned about swearing. A few had been asked to throw the ball higher but no yellow cards were issued (mainly because they had been forgotten). Overall everyone enjoyed their table tennis and plans are already in place to hold a similar event next year.

Results:

Over 40
Ray Jackson (Lancs) bt. Steve Welch (Lincs)
Over 50
John Lawton (Cleveland) bt. Ray Jackson (Lancs)
Over 60
John Lawton (Cleveland) bt. Lynda Reid (Worcestershire)
Over 70
Stan Clarke (Lancs) bt. Geoff Taylor (Warwickshire)
Open Singles
John Lawton (Cleveland) bt. Ray Jackson (Lancs)
Open Plate
Bill Moran (Lincs) bt. John Mackey (Lincs)
Doubles
Jackson/Mackey bt. Sutcliffe/Edwards



out of these umpires how many of them serve legally??
i can spot 3 that i know of who dont!!!!

[Mr Wilko]

i remember being told a story about Des Douglas & Dennis Neale playing Dbls against 2 chinese in some major tournament (not sure which one) it might even of been a final when Dennis told Des to be ready to shake hands, Dennis served straight out of hand, Chinese put it straight in net (as not ready) Dennis ran round table shook hands then ran off while Des stood amazed and knowing Des, Embarraced.

[Assybish]

In terms of our local league prem division the main foul serves are straight out of hand fast with the hand closed thereby gaining a major advantage or hand closed and ball shielded with a throw of about 1-2 ".

This is why I object.
I played with Des as a junior and he was completely straight. We were both coached by the same guy and he taught honesty and fairness at all times.

[Mr Wilko]

I played with Des as a junior and he was completely straight. We were both coached by the same guy and he taught honesty and fairness at all times.

Assybish- totally agree with your statement, i played on same team as Des in British League (For Darlington) i dont think there was a more honest player than Des, but Dennis was and still is the total opposite.

[DaveR]

Assybish- totally agree with your statement, i played on same team as Des in British League (For Darlington) i dont think there was a more honest player than Des, but Dennis was and still is the total opposite.

Dennis is as always bending the rules or curving them !

Hey nothing changes these days.................although Andy ive noticed that long deep serve is being thrown "donwards" these days!:redcard:

[Mr Wilko]

if you are going on about my serve, you are only saying that because you cant get it back!!!!!!

Just like David Meads complained when he was 6-2 down in the 5th!!!!! ha ha ha

(i have never been fowl served in my career)

[Boneman]

(i have never been fowl served in my career)

Ah... well... I used to serve fowl... and have fowl served to me quite often prior to becoming a vegetarian in 1991....

Sorry... couldn't help myself... :bag: